The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters

[retroluffy13]

Enel: has an extremely overpowered ability, man himself is overrated by many.

Law: for the longest time, we knew nothing about him. I wouldn't say he's overrated, but as of late, he is hax to the tenth degree.

Luffy: use to be overrated, though i feel he's been underrated as of late with all the new law wank.

WhiteBeard > Chuck Norris.

[DEW]

I thought we were talking about what's his face....Doflamingo

Oh. Then I agree, although I think he can win potentially.

[strawhats]

Oh. Then I agree, although I think he can win potentially.

Possibly, yes. I do think he can match the Admirals, but the fact that we know little about his fighting abilities leaves me split on whether he could potentially beat them. He's confident, I'll give him that. He threatened a higher up of the WG even though he had the Admirals at his disposal, so that might be a hint that he's confident enough to take anything they can throw at him, possibly?

[m1hawkgsm]

Standard for the new VA levels? He beat one pretty handily, and then one-shot another. In all seriousness I think he is in the limbo between VA and Admiral, like Marco. So he can't do jack shit to an Admiral, but VAs are doable with some challenge.

Smoker is near even with him, I'm convinced he can defeat Vergo (had he not had that debt to Law). You also have to remember the power levels of the VAs themselves vary.

Doable implies on par. And I'm talking about new people.

[Flawfree Princess]

Big Mom is stronger than DD and she is not his underling until proven otherwise. Kindly deal with it.

Not strictly speaking.  We don't know if his abilities can work on her, if he's secretly manipulated her without her realizing, etc. etc.

You can never say "it's this until proven otherwise" if you can't give explicit panels in the first place.

Unless you're biceps.  But he died.

No one has given me explicit panels to show that DD is controlling BM.

[Oben]

@zetruz: I won’t quote all of your post, since there are some things that can’t be argued with, the CNet quotes for example. I’ll have to give you the Shichibukai and Bobbins. (Damn ^^)

As for the rest, I’ll divide your post into topics I disagree with, since I know your points and it’s easier than quoting everything as a whole.

1. The Yonkou (similar to the Shichibukai) title doesn’t require strength

I’ll point out why the Yonkou needs strength and can’t just run the business as a weakling, different to a Shichibukai.
The Yonkou has to hold his crew together. The bigger the crew, the more likely is internal conflict. There is nearly no way to prevent the crew from falling apart by revolution without being able to prove strength. Even the SHs, which are bound together with nakamapower and happiness, have experienced that – Luffy had to prove his strength to Usopp and the crew, and Luffy and Zoro came into a fight. Now, make the crew a 100 times bigger and a dozen times stronger, and put a weakling at the top of it. Obviously that can work out if there is a bigger force behind the head (like in Spandam’s case), but that only applies if the underlings know of that force – which wouldn’t be the case for any of the known Yonkou’s crews.  
(Obviuosly charisma can hold together a crew for a while – but you can’t tell me that this will last forever, especially if the underlings fear the boss like the devil the holy water like in Big Mam’s case.)

2. Doflamingo’s feats put him on Yonkiral level

See, they could, but they don’t necessarily do. Doflamingo’s feats, as big as they are, only put him above a certain level, and that is above the common VA. There is still a huge gap to the known Yonkou, which are likely on roughly the same level. (Yes, they are.) The comparison with Aokiji is flawed too – we have NOT seen DD being capable of actually defeating Jozu, while Aokiji is.
Obviously Big Mam doesn’t have the feats to prove that level yet – then again, if that is the only thing that counts, Buggy > Kaidou. Oh, and Buggy > DD, too, btw.

But fine – let’s assume Doflamingo is actually on that level, since it is not impossible.

I can’t seriously argue a fighting debate without any “real” feats for Big Mam *shrugs*
My interest is more in point 1) and 3) anyway.

3. The story won't head to Dressrosa next because Big Mam is under DD

Everything in the current chapter 692 points towards Dressrosa – DD’s henchman arriving, trying and probably managing to get Caesar there – once Caesar is there, Law will have to follow, since his whole plan is based on stopping the production of SAD. There is no point in taking on Big Mam before actually putting his plan into motion. We also know that Law has no problem in taking on DD’s organization – he must’ve known DD would send men, yet he didn’t care at all. That also points in the direction of Doflamingo next.
Now, to the second point. What points towards it? The thing with the gears, but that doesn’t mean at all that DD is actually the boss of Big Mam. It means they are connected in some way, but I’d guess as business partners. Given CC’s comment about the Smiles, she is actually purchasing them – would she do that if they were in the same organization? Hardly. Obviously DD can take influence in some way, like any trader can – but not more than that. DD influence lies in the gears he has connected, not in what he has built up (!).

[m1hawkgsm]

No one has given me explicit panels to show that DD is controlling BM.

No one has given me explicit panels showing that Big Mom can one shot DD while eating ginger bread cookies.

What we do have are:

1. A panel of Law referencing DD's "gears", which include, interestingly enough, a picture of Big Mom, along with CC. Above are the new players.

2. Big Mom's higher underlings pay attention seriously to DD's doings.

3. Big Mom has an addiction to candy.

The last two are more circumstantial than anything, but the first one is very symbolic. You might say, "well Yonkou are part of the old system, so there". Yes, but why is Big Mom there and not Shanks? Not Kaido? Not Blackbeard? Why is she there at THAT moment?

Keep in mind that "control" can be a very loose thing. We saw that WB relied on stuff that had DD's label on it. That is a very weak form of control, but it still is control.

How much remains to be ascertained, but it's clear DD has some sort of special relationship with BM.

What do you have against that, panel wise?

[Flawfree Princess]

No one has given me explicit panels to show that DD is controlling BM.

No one has given me explicit panels showing that Big Mom can one shot DD while eating ginger bread cookies.

What we do have are:

1. A panel of Law referencing DD's "gears", which include, interestingly enough, a picture of Big Mom, along with CC. Above are the new players.

And none of those people are controlled by DD. CC is the only one confirmed to be affliated with DD and even then he's not controlled by him. So I fail to see how the majority of the fandom has chosen to believe that panels means DD is controlling BM

Big Mom's higher underlings pay attention seriously to DD's doings.

We were shown tons of new faces watching CC's broadcast. What makes you think other underlings of other yonkous weren't watching as well?
In any case underlings watching CC still do not indicate or even hint that DD is controlling her

3.  Big Mom has an addiction to candy.

And?

The last two are more circuumstantial than anything, but the first one is very symbolic.  You might say, "well Yonkou are part of the old system, so there".  Yes, but why is Big Mom there and not Shanks? Not Kaido?  Not Blackbeard?  Why is she there at THAT moment?

Because she's the next yonkou Oda has chosen to introduce us to since FI

Keep in mind that "control" can be a very loose thing.  We saw that WB relied on stuff that had DD's label on it.  That is a very weak form of control, but it still is control.

Ok so what kind of control are you guys implying here then? *confused*

How much remains to be ascertained, but it's clear DD has some sort of special relationship with BM.

Of course there's a link between the two but I'm seeing a lot of reaching being done here. Things are being stated as facts based on one's interpretation of manga panels that can often be off from the author's original intent.

What do you have against that, panel wise?

The fact that the era of smiles was stated to have begun about two years ago and we know that BM was already a yonkou prior to that. She had the same design so she may have been already addicted to candy regardless of DD/CC. More importantly the SAD business only began recently. I think it's underestimating BM by coming to the conclusion she would let herself be controlled by a shichi no less in that time.

[zetruz]

1. The Yonkou (similar to the Shichibukai) title doesn’t require strength

I’ll point out why the Yonkou needs strength and can’t just run the business as a weakling, different to a Shichibukai.
The Yonkou has to hold his crew together. The bigger the crew, the more likely is internal conflict. There is nearly no way to prevent the crew from falling apart by revolution without being able to prove strength. Even the SHs, which are bound together with nakamapower and happiness, have experienced that – Luffy had to prove his strength to Usopp and the crew, and Luffy and Zoro came into a fight. Now, make the crew a 100 times bigger and a dozen times stronger, and put a weakling at the top of it. Obviously that can work out if there is a bigger force behind the head (like in Spandam’s case), but that only applies if the underlings know of that force – which wouldn’t be the case for any of the known Yonkou’s crews.  
(Obviuosly charisma can hold together a crew for a while – but you can’t tell me that this will last forever, especially if the underlings fear the boss like the devil the holy water like in Big Mam’s case.)

Actually, it's easy to design a Yonkou pirate crew that's run by a weakling. Imagine if Buggy's followers are as strong as Marco and the like. Buggy could send them to take over islands, and he could command them to protect him because they think he's strong. Like his presumed Shichibukai status, a Yonkou status can be based on one big lie. There's no actual difference. In fact, if anything, the Shichibukai are more likely to have to prove their strength, since they can actually be summoned to battles like the Whitebeard War.

Or let's imagine a different crew. Let's say Big Mom is a weakling, but she has a few select underlings that are Marco-level. These know about the lie, though. These people work for Doflamingo, and are told by him to protect her and maintain the lie. She's a weakling, yet perceived to be a Yonkou (though Doflamingo would be the 'actual' boss).

So as I keep saying, strength isn't an absolute necessity to be a Yonkou. One can design crews based not on the Yonkou's personal strength. Which is part of why I say that Big Mom's title doesn't put her above Doflamingo. It simply doesn't. It has never ever been indicated that Doflamingo is below anybody; in fact, it's been indicated that he is unbelievably strong, because he has almost caused war from within Mariejoa itself twice. Once, he was attacking Vice Admirals and toying with them when there were top Marines and other Shichibukais around. After the war, he was threatening an implied "absolute top" World Government official while in Mariejoa. This shouldn't be forgotten or ignored.

See, they could, but they don’t necessarily do. Doflamingo’s feats, as big as they are, only put him above a certain level, and that is above the common VA. There is still a huge gap to the known Yonkou, which are likely on roughly the same level. (Yes, they are.)

Why? We know the Shichibukai aren't all on the same level. We know the Vice Admirals aren't all on the same level. We know the Yonkou aren't all on the same level (prime Whitebeard was in a league above the others). We know that the Yonkou league, like the Shichibukai league, isn't "even" - we know that the Yonkou can play in different power ranges. I didn't just randomly say that Oda has made a point of shattering perceived equality.
Compare Mihawk to Moria. Or Jinbe to Moria, even. They are worlds apart, despite having the same title.
Compare Jaguar D. Saul to then-Vice Admiral Kuzan. They were worlds apart, despite having the same title. Saul didn't stand a chance in hell of defeating Aokiji.
Compare prime Whitebeard to any other Yonkou. We know he was in a league above them all, together with Roger and Garp.
Compare the Supernovas, they also apply. Pre-TS Urouge vs pre-TS Luffy? Or pre-TS Kid vs pre-TS Zoro?

We know the Yonkou aren't all necessarily on the same level. Oda has made a point of telling us this even when it comes to the Yonkou.

The comparison with Aokiji is flawed too – we have NOT seen DD being capable of actually defeating Jozu, while Aokiji is.

Flawed? Vague? Perhaps. But also worth mentioning.
Aokiji was able to defeat Jozu when Jozu was looking away.
Doflamingo was able to take control of Jozu when he was looking away. He even rode the bugger.
So in other words, both people have managed to troll Jozu when Jozu has been looking away. While that leaves a lot of unknowns, it does mean they have similar feats. In fact, these are the only two people who managed to troll Jozu, as far as I know. One could very well make the argument that Oda was trying to tell us something.

Obviously Big Mam doesn’t have the feats to prove that level yet – then again, if that is the only thing that counts, Buggy > Kaidou. Oh, and Buggy > DD, too, btw.

I have explicitly said that feats aren't the only thing that counts, and that I think hype is worth mentioning, so there's nothing I can say to that.
With Buggy, we know he's weak. That's been proven, both story-wise and feats-wise.
So in short, I never said that's the only thing that counts, nor did I ever use that logic at all. (Did you see me saying "since Doflamingo has feats, he's stronger than Big Mom"?)


We know that a Shichibukai isn't always as weak as Moria, and we know a Yonkou isn't always as strong as Whitebeard. When it comes to flawed and vague arguments, the title-based one is pretty high up there, don't you see? Why should we assume that no-feats Doflamingo is weaker than no-feats Big Mom?

3. The story won't head to Dressrosa next because Big Mam is under DD

Everything in the current chapter 692 points towards Dressrosa – DD’s henchman arriving, trying and probably managing to get Caesar there – once Caesar is there, Law will have to follow, since his whole plan is based on stopping the production of SAD. There is no point in taking on Big Mam before actually putting his plan into motion. We also know that Law has no problem in taking on DD’s organization – he must’ve known DD would send men, yet he didn’t care at all. That also points in the direction of Doflamingo next.

But by that logic, he could've also assumed that Big Mom would send men, since she's dependent on the Smiles. And yet he didn't care at all. So by your logic, Law fears neither the Big Mom Pirates nor the Donquixote Pirates.

Actually, Law has never indicated that he's ready to fight Doflamingo. If he was, why would he be attacking Doflamingo's organization on an island as remote as Punk Hazard? It's because he thought he'd found a weak point; a weakly defended island with one of Doflamingo's most important gears. Law's plan has failed; Doflamingo will now bring Caesar back to him, and hold Caesar very tight to his chest. We have no reason to think Law is willing to go there - there's a reason why he was upset by the thought of Caesar getting away.

So I disagree, I think Law attacked such a remote island because while he's willing to fight both Big Mom and Doflamingo, he isn't ready to attack them directly yet. This arc was something akin to guerrilla warfare, and guerrilla warfare is done by people who simply aren't prepared to face the enemy directly.

Now, to the second point. What points towards it? The thing with the gears, but that doesn’t mean at all that DD is actually the boss of Big Mam. It means they are connected in some way, but I’d guess as business partners. Given CC’s comment about the Smiles, she is actually purchasing them – would she do that if they were in the same organization? Hardly. Obviously DD can take influence in some way, like any trader can – but not more than that. DD influence lies in the gears he has connected, not in what he has built up (!).

This is a very big one. Doflamingo is providing Big Mom with wares. We don't know if she buys them or not, since if Doflamingo does control Big Mom, DD isn't likely to tell Caesar this, thus Caesar may very well just assume that she's buying the wares. So all we know is that DD provides BM with Smiles.
Now, why is that important? Well, the fact that he's providing her with such weapons means she is dependent on him. Not the other way around. We outright know that Big Mom is dependent on Doflamingo, but we have no reason to think the reverse is true. In fact, if Doflamingo was giving her Smiles as payment for something, why doesn't Big Mom just kidnap Caesar?
So indeed, we're told that Big Mom is dependent on Doflamingo's wares, and he has a monopoly on them. This means he can control the prices as he wishes, if he is indeed selling them. He controls the market, and he has chosen to let her purchase his goods. This means her buying his wares plays right into Doflamingo's hand, ie she is his pawn. She may not know it, she may just think of it as a business deal, but he is above her in the food chain.

This doesn't at all prove that he's stronger than her, of course, that's a whole different issue. But I would say we've been shown that Big Mom is dependent on Doflamingo, while the reverse hasn't even been hinted at. If Big Mom having Smiles didn't play into Doflamingo's hand, why would he let her have them? We don't know what his plan is, but Big Mom is a potential enemy. Would he really give her these powerful weapons for money? No, he wouldn't. He's a Shichibukai, and a very strong one at that. Shichibukai can make money by raiding the World Government's enemies, which would be the easiest thing in the world for Doflamingo.
So it isn't that - it isn't for financial gain. He's providing her with Smiles because he wants her to have Smiles, which means it's a relationship of superiority in the food chain. One is dependent on the other, and so far it's been implied a number of times that she needs him. He has a monopoly, and thus, he makes the rules. When it comes to this "business deal", Big Mom is Doflamingo's pawn, though she may not be intelligent enough to realize it. (She could very well think it's just business.)

[waleuska]

^^i agree. the odds are DD is controlling Big Mom one way or anther.