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The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters
#61
Oben Wrote:
Quote:Actually, because he is a Shichibukai, he is (or was) by definition a pirate; clicky! The Shichibukai are, or were, all pirates. =)

Kuma?

Yeah, him too.
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#62
diezdragon Wrote:Yeah, him too.

I know he was referred to as a pirate, but was he really one? In Sabo's flashback he was already with Dragon.
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#63
All the shichibukai were active pirates at some point. His past with the RA doesn't mean he wasn't a pirate later on.
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#64
Oben Wrote:Yes, but we know Big Mam's strength is big enough to make her able to play in the very top league. As for DD, we can only assume that. The only thing we know is that he is stronger than VA/Commander-level, but not necessarily Yonkiral-level (let's use that ^^) - but there's much space for DD to fit inbetween. And this is were I think he sits.
Actually, if we're going to be technical, we don't know that about Big Mom. We know she has that political title, but we don't know that she earned it through personal strength. We can only assume that. =)


Oben Wrote:Hm, you need to differ between title and position.
Yonkou Shichibukai are titles, Vice-Admiral is a position (Garp doesn't serve as an example though, since he simply turned a promotion down, hence can be considered admiral). I would consider a Marine rank more stable powerwise than the Shichibukai - and after all, the Yonkou we've seen were somewhat equal.
I agree that Marine ranks are more stable than the Shichibukai and Yonkou, since you have to have Haki to be a Vice Admiral, but that doesn't mean it isn't a title. The Yonkou all have the title/position of Yonkou, and the Vice Admirals all have the title/position of Vice Admiral. They are interchangeable; you're saying there's a difference where there isn't really one of worth.
And Garp does count, that's my whole point. He's a Vice Admiral who shows that you can be ludicrously strong and still be "just" a Vice Admiral. This proves that titles are unreliable, even among the Marines. Or look at when Saul fought Kuzan. Both were Vice Admirals, but Saul said when Kuzan approached that Kuzan was a monster. They were worlds apart, despite having the same rank. And that's in an organization where we both agree that the titles/positions are more telling than the Shichibukai and Yonkou titles are. See what I mean? That's why I think titles are so overrated. He's shown it time and time again.


Oben Wrote:I agree with this. But I would consider WB/Roger in a whole category above Yonkiral.
Power-wise, yes - but despite that, Whitebeard was a Yonkou. He was a Yonkou that was way stronger than all other Yonkous. See my point? Same position/title/rank, but greater strength.


Oben Wrote:It's a BIG stretch to believe that just because DD could cut off Oars leg he can also behead Big Mom. Renember, Oars fell for Moria, who you above consider an example for weakness among the Shichibukai ^^
I'm talking basic mechanical strength. If Big Mom isn't a Logia, and has the same "flesh hardness" as Oars, then Doflamingo can cut her head off. Simple as that. Maybe she can use Tekkai or CoA on a level high enough to block the attack, but what if Doflamingo takes her by surprise? It's an invisible and insanely quick attack. That's not a stretch at all, it's pure logic.


Oben Wrote:There are tons of possibilities it wouldn't work. The most simply is her to dodge. Or to block. Haki has never been displayed against the cut - and since there are obious similarities to law's cuts, it could very well help. Etc., etc.
Of course CoA could help, and Tekkai could help (though my opinion is that Jyabura's Tekkai would be laughed at by Doflamingo's slicing attack), etc. Of course it can be dealt with. But that's all assuming she has the time and strength to. Doflamingo's feats are immense.


Feats-wise, we know Doflamingo can control (and laugh at) CoA users. Jozu couldn't do a thing. Doflamingo also played around with Vice Admirals in the Shichibukai meeting. And Atmos was forced to attack his friends (not a confirmed Haki user, though).
He's been shown to cut huge limbs apart at the flick of a finger. So dodging that attack is indescribably difficult, and Big Mom isn't small. Her best bet is to block the attack (unless she is a Logia), but how do you block an invisible and incredibly fast attack? Let's say, for simplicity's sake, that she


Big Mom's hype is based on her title, which is fair. But her title is not by definition above Doflamingo's title, because both are political ones of different natures. The whole Big Mom > Doflamingo notion is based on a percieved difference in rank, but that ranking difference is fan-created, not Oda-created. He has never said that the Yonkou are by definition stronger than the Shichibukai. We can generalize and say that the one well-known Yonkou (Whitebeard) is stronger than all the well-known Shichibukais. But by that logic, I can say that the Vice Admiral ranking is higher than the Admiral ranking, since prime Garp > Akainu. See how vague it is? It's a reasoning riddled with flaws. We have seen part of Doflamingo's ability, and though he hasn't used it on absolute top-level fighters, he has used it on Jozu, who couldn't do a thing against it. He was fodderized by Doflamingo. Aokiji didn't manage to do that until Jozu was busy worrying about Whitebeard and Marco.

Feats-wise, Doflamingo has been able to fodderize insanely strong people, and he did it inside Mariejoa. Big Mom's only feats are the ability to get followers. She shares that ability with people like Doflamingo, Luffy, Whitebeard, and Buggy. It doesn't prove anything, especially since Doflamingo has done the same.
Hype-wise, people tend to think that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of perceived differences in title rankings. I disagree. I don't think the titles of Yonkou and Shichibukai are comparable at all, they don't reside in the same dimensions. They aren't in competition. And in fact, I think Doflamingo has more hype than Big Mom. Not because of titles, but because of how Oda has been dropping hints throughout the manga about Doflamingo's strength and influence.

This is why I think Doflamingo is one of the absolute strongest people in the world, and won't be dealt with for a long time. Indeed, I think he is in effect the actual fourth Yonkou, because I think he "owns" Big Mom (though she may not know it herself).


Oben Wrote:I know he was referred to as a pirate, but was he really one? In Sabo's flashback he was already with Dragon.
Yes, he was an undercover revolutionary. He still was when he was a Shichibukai. That doesn't make him not a Shichibukai; one can be both. In fact, he was. =)
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#65
zetruz Wrote:Actually, if we're going to be technical, we don't know that about Big Mom. We know she has that political title, but we don't know that she earned it through personal strength. We can only assume that. =)

We can guess - one of her underlings, Bobbins, single-handedly wiped out an island, and people like Pekoms and Tamago fear her very much, and neither are weaklings themselves (or rather, Pekoms isn't, Tamago isn't proven yet. but as he seems to be Pekoms' superior, he's probably stronger).
That indicates her strength to be massive.

Quote:I agree that Marine ranks are more stable than the Shichibukai and Yonkou, since you have to have Haki to be a Vice Admiral, but that doesn't mean it isn't a title. The Yonkou all have the title/position of Yonkou, and the Vice Admirals all have the title/position of Vice Admiral. They are interchangeable; you're saying there's a difference where there isn't really one of worth.
And Garp does count, that's my whole point. He's a Vice Admiral who shows that you can be ludicrously strong and still be "just" a Vice Admiral. This proves that titles are unreliable, even among the Marines. Or look at when Saul fought Kuzan. Both were Vice Admirals, but Saul said when Kuzan approached that Kuzan was a monster. They were worlds apart, despite having the same rank. And that's in an organization where we both agree that the titles/positions are more telling than the Shichibukai and Yonkou titles are. See what I mean? That's why I think titles are so overrated. He's shown it time and time again.

Power-wise, yes - but despite that, Whitebeard was a Yonkou. He was a Yonkou that was way stronger than all other Yonkous. See my point? Same position/title/rank, but greater strength.
Sure. But that doesn’t rule out that the Yonkou are the four strongest pirates (see the beginning of the discussion). On the other hand, we know a Yonkou needs a great amount of strength to be called Yonkou in the first place, it is a title you earn. Hence, while the title doesn’t define a certain level for all that have it, it certainly does define a minimum level. This, btw, doesn’t apply for Marine ranks, since they are necessarily not earned but given, but it does for Shichibukai.

Quote:I'm talking basic mechanical strength. If Big Mom isn't a Logia, and has the same "flesh hardness" as Oars, then Doflamingo can cut her head off. Simple as that. Maybe she can use Tekkai or CoA on a level high enough to block the attack, but what if Doflamingo takes her by surprise? It's an invisible and insanely quick attack. That's not a stretch at all, it's pure logic.
Obviously her head can be cut of. But he question is, can it actually be done just like that? Probably not, since there are various ways why it wouldn’t – surprise attacks tend not to work to well against Haki users.And I don’t consider it a stretch to assume she can use at least the basics of CoO. We know Haki to very common among the BM-pirates, therefore the chances for her to be able to use CoO is high.


Quote:Of course CoA could help, and Tekkai could help (though my opinion is that Jyabura's Tekkai would be laughed at by Doflamingo's slicing attack), etc. Of course it can be dealt with. But that's all assuming she has the time and strength to. Doflamingo's feats are immense.


Feats-wise, we know Doflamingo can control (and laugh at) CoA users. Jozu couldn't do a thing. Doflamingo also played around with Vice Admirals in the Shichibukai meeting. And Atmos was forced to attack his friends (not a confirmed Haki user, though).
He's been shown to cut huge limbs apart at the flick of a finger. So dodging that attack is indescribably difficult, and Big Mom isn't small. Her best bet is to block the attack (unless she is a Logia), but how do you block an invisible and incredibly fast attack? Let's say, for simplicity's sake, that she

If she would fall for an attack like that, she wouldn’t be worth getting called Yonkou – but she is called Yonkou,and as I emphasized above and will also below, that means she must have a certain amount of feats.
Dodging becomes more easy with CoO, which she is likely to have. Also, all of the Yonkou are probably a good deal better than Jozu (and Jozu is better than Atmos and the average VA), so that feat doesn’t really make DD as strong as Big Mam.

Quote:Big Mom's hype is based on her title, which is fair. But her title is not by definition above Doflamingo's title, because both are political ones of different natures. The whole Big Mom > Doflamingo notion is based on a percieved difference in rank, but that ranking difference is fan-created, not Oda-created. He has never said that the Yonkou are by definition stronger than the Shichibukai. We can generalize and say that the one well-known Yonkou (Whitebeard) is stronger than all the well-known Shichibukais. But by that logic, I can say that the Vice Admiral ranking is higher than the Admiral ranking, since prime Garp > Akainu. See how vague it is? It's a reasoning riddled with flaws. We have seen part of Doflamingo's ability, and though he hasn't used it on absolute top-level fighters, he has used it on Jozu, who couldn't do a thing against it. He was fodderized by Doflamingo. Aokiji didn't manage to do that until Jozu was busy worrying about Whitebeard and Marco.
It is more than just hype. We have good reasons to believe that Big Mam has strength of her own, reasons besides her title:
- To be able to gain that position in the first place
- To be able to control such a huge crew. This is an important aspect, since we know how easily brutal conflict sparkles even in small crews, take for exampleLuffy vs. Usopp in Water 7.
- To be able to maintain her position. How many strong people try to take a Yonkou down? Probably dozens, if not more. She must have strength to surivive, and not only to survive, but keep her title.
See where I’m coming from?

Quote:Feats-wise, Doflamingo has been able to fodderize insanely strong people, and he did it inside Mariejoa. Big Mom's only feats are the ability to get followers. She shares that ability with people like Doflamingo, Luffy, Whitebeard, and Buggy. It doesn't prove anything, especially since Doflamingo has done the same.
Hype-wise, people tend to think that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of perceived differences in title rankings. I disagree. I don't think the titles of Yonkou and Shichibukai are comparable at all, they don't reside in the same dimensions. They aren't in competition. And in fact, I think Doflamingo has more hype than Big Mom. Not because of titles, but because of how Oda has been dropping hints throughout the manga about Doflamingo's strength and influence.
I never said that DD was weak – simply, that being above a VA and Jozu doesn’t put him on the level of an Admiral. Take, for Luffy and Wadatsumi. Both were able to knock out the Krakenwith the same technique – does that mean they have the same strength? No.
As for Big Mam, see the top of my post. She’s more than just hype, by manga facts,


Quote:This is why I think Doflamingo is one of the absolute strongest people in the world, and won't be dealt with for a long time. Indeed, I think he is in effect the actual fourth Yonkou, because I think he "owns" Big Mom (though she may not know it herself).
That is very unlikely imo. Everything the story points towards is that Doflamingo will be the next main villain (see the current chapter, his henchmen and everyone is heading to Dressrosa) – and with that, his strength is most likely lower than the later opponents.


God, that took long -.-
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#66
Well, I can safely say DD is quite overrated atm. I understand Oda is hinting at DD being a beast but it seems some are passing it off as fact that DD is on some kind of godly tier. I can only imagine what is to come when we see him fighting seriously....
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#67
Ajh77 Wrote:Well, I can safely say DD is quite overrated atm.  I understand Oda is hinting at DD being a beast but it seems some are passing it off as fact that DD is on some kind of godly tier.  I can only imagine what is to come when we see him fighting seriously....
He hints that he is capable of taking on an Admiral. That isn't really 'godly'.

Also, Law is underrated. He can probably one-shot everyone sans Kizaru, Akainu & Eneru.
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#68
DEW Wrote:
Ajh77 Wrote:Well, I can safely say DD is quite overrated atm.  I understand Oda is hinting at DD being a beast but it seems some are passing it off as fact that DD is on some kind of godly tier.  I can only imagine what is to come when we see him fighting seriously....
He hints that he is capable of taking on an Admiral. That isn't really 'godly'.

Also, Law is underrated. He can probably one-shot everyone sans Kizaru, Akainu & Eneru.
Indeed, the fans make it seem as such though. As if DD will be the strongest character in One Piece ever. I think he will be on par with an Admiral but still be clearly below them.

Of course. Oda teamed Luffy up with Law so he wouldn't get slaughtered by Big Mama. Law will be able to protect the Strawhats from Big Mama, her crew, and her allies.
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#69
Oben Wrote:We can guess - one of her underlings, Bobbins, single-handedly wiped out an island, and people like Pekoms and Tamago fear her very much, and neither are weaklings themselves (or rather, Pekoms isn't, Tamago isn't proven yet. but as he seems to be Pekoms' superior, he's probably stronger).
That indicates her strength to be massive.
Actually, Bobbin arrived with friends, indicating that he didn't do it alone.
Yes, it does show that Pekoms thinks Big Mom is stronger than him. Not massively stronger necessarily, but stronger. (And in theory, he could be wrong.)
Point is, you're complaining that we assume Doflamingo is insanely strong. But the same is actually the case with Big Mom. You see a difference here that isn't shown in the manga.


Oben Wrote:Sure. But that doesn’t rule out that the Yonkou are the four strongest pirates (see the beginning of the discussion). On the other hand, we know a Yonkou needs a great amount of strength to be called Yonkou in the first place, it is a title you earn. Hence, while the title doesn’t define a certain level for all that have it, it certainly does define a minimum level. This, btw, doesn’t apply for Marine ranks, since they are necessarily not earned but given, but it does for Shichibukai.
The bolded part is incorrect. All you need is enough political influence to rule a great part of the New World. In theory, Big Mom could be a weakling, but is legitimized by Doflamingo. Obviously I do think that all the Yonkou are strong, but you're wrong in saying one has to be insanely strong to be one. Likewise, the Shichibukai title is given to people deemed infamous enough to scare people into not becoming pirates. Buggy can be a Shichibukai because he's famous since the war (people even know he's an old Roger Pirate!). The Shichibukai title is infamy-based, and infamy is usually generated through the use of personal strength - but not always. Not necessarily. The Yonkou title is based on political power and influence, and such political power is usually granted through the use of personal power, but not always. Not necessarily. We can only assume that Big Mom is that strong, just like how we can only assume Doflamingo is that strong. Neither title defines a "minimum strength", and neither title is above the other.


Oben Wrote:Obviously her head can be cut of. But he question is, can it actually be done just like that? Probably not, since there are various ways why it wouldn’t – surprise attacks tend not to work to well against Haki users.And I don’t consider it a stretch to assume she can use at least the basics of CoO. We know Haki to very common among the BM-pirates, therefore the chances for her to be able to use CoO is high.
CoO can be overcome with sheer speed, even pre-timeskip Luffy could overcome CoO with the use of Gear Second. And Gear Second movement takes much longer time than flicking a silly little finger, especially given how strong Doflamingo's muscles are. There's no getting around the fact that Doflamingo has to merely aim, and then flick a finger, to cut a whole limb off. To block that with Haki, Big Mom has to sense first that Doflamingo is going to attack her, then apply CoA defense. And remember, Vergo made the mistake of covering his whole body with CoA Hardening, instead of focusing it all in the area where he would be attacked. You think Doflamingo's ability can be negated with "general CoA"? No chance, you'll have to focus your Haki. And that means there's another step in the chain.
Doflamingo: Aim vaguely in Big Mom's direction (she's rather large), and flick his finger.
Big Mom: Sense this with CoO, sense where she will be attacked, and then amass enough CoA to block it.
And don't forget, Doflamingo's ability has a history of completely trolling proven CoA users, like Jozu. So even if Doflamingo can't cut Big Mom (maybe that can be blocked with CoA), we do know that his puppet-control ability does work on extremely strong CoA users.



Oben Wrote:If she would fall for an attack like that, she wouldn’t be worth getting called Yonkou – but she is called Yonkou,and as I emphasized above and will also below, that means she must have a certain amount of feats.
I would refer you to this page.


Oben Wrote:Dodging becomes more easy with CoO, which she is likely to have. Also, all of the Yonkou are probably a good deal better than Jozu (and Jozu is better than Atmos and the average VA), so that feat doesn’t really make DD as strong as Big Mam.
See the mistake you make yet again? You're assuming from the get-go that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of the title, which I've shown a few times now to be a very flawed assumption. Why does Doflamingo have everything to prove, and Big Mom have nothing to prove? Even Aokiji wasn't able to troll Jozu that easily, so Doflamingo has proven that he is monstrously strong. Big Mom has proven nothing, yet you assume her to be stronger than Doflamingo by definition because of a title. We know Doflamingo's ability can overcome CoA, and we know sheer speed can overcome CoO (and Doflamingo's attack is unbelievably quick, not to mention invisible).


Oben Wrote:It is more than just hype. We have good reasons to believe that Big Mam has strength of her own, reasons besides her title:
- To be able to gain that position in the first place
- To be able to control such a huge crew. This is an important aspect, since we know how easily brutal conflict sparkles even in small crews, take for exampleLuffy vs. Usopp in Water 7.
- To be able to maintain her position. How many strong people try to take a Yonkou down? Probably dozens, if not more. She must have strength to surivive, and not only to survive, but keep her title.
See where I’m coming from?
Yes, and all of these can be explained away just like how Buggy can be a Shichibukai.
1. What if she was given the title by Doflamingo? What if she's protected by him?
2. What if Doflamingo is controlling her crew? And what if her crew are all idiots, just like Buggy's crew?
3. What if she doesn't ever fight, but rather sends out her underlings because she gives off an air of being "above fighting"?

The Yonkou title is a political power usually, but not necessarily, given due to personal strength. The same goes for Shichibukai. And unlike Big Mom, we do know that Doflamingo is strong enough to literally toy with top-level fighters like Jozu. Not even an Admiral has done that.


Oben Wrote:I never said that DD was weak – simply, that being above a VA and Jozu doesn’t put him on the level of an Admiral. Take, for Luffy and Wadatsumi. Both were able to knock out the Krakenwith the same technique – does that mean they have the same strength? No.
A very flawed comparison. Doflamingo has toyed with Jozu, and Aokiji did not.
And we know that people with the same positions can be of extremely varied strength. Compare Mihawk to Moria. They are worlds apart. So why, then, are we assuming that Big Mom's strength can be at all compared to Shanks' or Whitebeard's? Why are we assuming she is that strong? Based on her title. By that logic, Mihawk is roughly as weak as Moria.

Doflamingo's feats, hype, and title all allow him to be Yonkiral level. We have more straight-out evidence that he is that strong, than we do that Big Mom is on that level. Given that Big Mom is a gear in Doflamingo's machinery, I'd say it's Big Mom who has yet to prove herself, not Doflamingo. We have good reason to assume he is on that level, because he has shown power in that general range.
Big Mom has not.


Oben Wrote:That is very unlikely imo. Everything the story points towards is that Doflamingo will be the next main villain (see the current chapter, his henchmen and everyone is heading to Dressrosa) – and with that, his strength is most likely lower than the later opponents.
Ah, so by that logic, in Chapter 551, you thought Big Mom was weaker than Doflamingo? Given that she was implied to be the next villain?
In fact, I still think we'll be seeing Big Mom fight before we see Doflamingo fight. She'll be a stepping stone towards Doflamingo, because he's above her. I know, that might sound outrageous to you, but consider what Luffy says on this page. The Big Mom fight began before the Doflamingo fight. Just sayin'.
Luckily, we're likely to see the direction this is going soon enough. Yes, I do think we'll be seeing a Big Mom fight before we see a Doflamingo fight. And yes, I do think Doflamingo is above Big Mom.
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#70
zetruz Wrote:Actually, Bobbin arrived with friends, indicating that he didn't do it alone.
Yes, it does show that Pekoms thinks Big Mom is stronger than him. Not massively stronger necessarily, but stronger. (And in theory, he could be wrong.)
Point is, you're complaining that we assume Doflamingo is insanely strong. But the same is actually the case with Big Mom. You see a difference here that isn't shown in the manga.
He says he (first person) burned it down – sure you can interprete it this or that way, but given who he is in what environment, it is very likely he did it himself.
Again, I’m not complaining about his strength – I’m complaining about what level of strength you eventually put him at.
Quote:The bolded part is incorrect. All you need is enough political influence to rule a great part of the New World. In theory, Big Mom could be a weakling, but is legitimized by Doflamingo. Obviously I do think that all the Yonkou are strong, but you're wrong in saying one has to be insanely strong to be one. Likewise, the Shichibukai title is given to people deemed infamous enough to scare people into not becoming pirates. Buggy can be a Shichibukai because he's famous since the war (people even know he's an old Roger Pirate!). The Shichibukai title is infamy-based, and infamy is usually generated through the use of personal strength - but not always. Not necessarily. The Yonkou title is based on political power and influence, and such political power is usually granted through the use of personal power, but not always. Not necessarily. We can only assume that Big Mom is that strong, just like how we can only assume Doflamingo is that strong. Neither title defines a "minimum strength", and neither title is above the other.

The Shichibukai-title is given to whom the Gorosei believe to be strong – it is the assumption of strength that could make Buggy Shichibukai rather than him being infamous (renember the Gorosei’s meeting after the war. They explicitly stated they wanted STRONG new candidates.) Now, Buggy isn’t strong, but he is assumed to be strong, so he got the title.
Now, let’s get to the Yonkou – and, I’m very sorry to say this, they are different. We know that Blackbeard had to conquer WB’s territories to be announced Yonkou by the public – that means, he had not only to be assumed to have strength but also to PROVE to have strength. Therefore, Big Mam can’t just be compared to Buggy.
As for the possibility of DD always being behind, I’ll look into that below.
Quote:CoO can be overcome with sheer speed, even pre-timeskip Luffy could overcome CoO with the use of Gear Second. And Gear Second movement takes much longer time than flicking a silly little finger, especially given how strong Doflamingo's muscles are. There's no getting around the fact that Doflamingo has to merely aim, and then flick a finger, to cut a whole limb off. To block that with Haki, Big Mom has to sense first that Doflamingo is going to attack her, then apply CoA defense. And remember, Vergo made the mistake of covering his whole body with CoA Hardening, instead of focusing it all in the area where he would be attacked. You think Doflamingo's ability can be negated with "general CoA"? No chance, you'll have to focus your Haki. And that means there's another step in the chain.
And you tell me I’m making wild assumptions? How do you even know that DD’s cut works like that?
What tells you the cut doesn’t work like a whip and needs a bigger movemet (which is more likely, btw)? How do you know what effects Haki has on it at all?
Just some questions.
Quote:Doflamingo: Aim vaguely in Big Mom's direction (she's rather large), and flick his finger.
Big Mom: Sense this with CoO, sense where she will be attacked, and then amass enough CoA to block it.
And don't forget, Doflamingo's ability has a history of completely trolling proven CoA users, like Jozu. So even if Doflamingo can't cut Big Mom (maybe that can be blocked with CoA), we do know that his puppet-control ability does work on extremely strong CoA users.
As for the cut, see above.
As for controlling I agree on that.
Quote:I would refer you to this page.
We know from Crocodile, Marco etc. that a healthy WB would’ve been able to dodge .
Quote:See the mistake you make yet again? You're assuming from the get-go that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of the title, which I've shown a few times now to be a very flawed assumption. Why does Doflamingo have everything to prove, and Big Mom have nothing to prove? Even Aokiji wasn't able to troll Jozu that easily, so Doflamingo has proven that he is monstrously strong.
All these points are already covered in other places of this post, I’ll not type them here again if you don’t mind.

Quote:Big Mom has proven nothing, yet you assume her to be stronger than Doflamingo by definition because of a title. We know Doflamingo's ability can overcome CoA, and we know sheer speed can overcome CoO (and Doflamingo's attack is unbelievably quick, not to mention invisible).
Yes, and all of these can be explained away just like how Buggy can be a Shichibukai.
1. What if she was given the title by Doflamingo? What if she's protected by him?
2. What if Doflamingo is controlling her crew? And what if her crew are all idiots, just like Buggy's crew?
3. What if she doesn't ever fight, but rather sends out her underlings because she gives off an air of being "above fighting"?
1. Is very unlikely. DD is what? 40? Big Mam seems to be a remnant from Roger’s age (given her comment on “Monkey D.”), so the chance he installed her are VERY slim.
2. Why would DD allow her crew to watch the Shinokuni experiment? Why would they watch it in the first place (though they could very well be idiots, that’s true. But look at Baby 5 and Buffalo, they don’t seem to be epitomes of reason either)
3. As pointed out in 1), her position must come from somewhere.
Quote:The Yonkou title is a political power usually, but not necessarily, given due to personal strength. The same goes for Shichibukai. And unlike Big Mom, we do know that Doflamingo is strong enough to literally toy with top-level fighters like Jozu. Not even an Admiral has done that.
First of all, DD didn’t toy with Jozu, he simply stopped his movements. But oh well, this is not much of importance here. Jozu, and this now is important, was not a top-level fighter. He was no match for Aokiji, and nothing indicates he would be for other top-level fighters.
Quote:A very flawed comparison. Doflamingo has toyed with Jozu, and Aokiji did not.
Aokiji had no problems defeating Jozu. It was just the first punch given by surprise that harmed Aokiji, later on he clearly dominated the battle.
Actually, the surprise moment comes into play with Jozu, too – Jozu was busy beating the crap out of Crocodile, so DD had easy play catching him.
Quote:And we know that people with the same positions can be of extremely varied strength. Compare Mihawk to Moria. They are worlds apart. So why, then, are we assuming that Big Mom's strength can be at all compared to Shanks' or Whitebeard's? Why are we assuming she is that strong? Based on her title. By that logic, Mihawk is roughly as weak as Moria.
See, her title makes it necessary for her to have strength. I have already pointed that out above.
Quote:Doflamingo's feats, hype, and title all allow him to be Yonkiral level. We have more straight-out evidence that he is that strong, than we do that Big Mom is on that level. Given that Big Mom is a gear in Doflamingo's machinery, I'd say it's Big Mom who has yet to prove herself, not Doflamingo. We have good reason to assume he is on that level, because he has shown power in that general range.
Big Mom has not.
And that is just your assumption for more assumptions – nothing proves Big Mam is under DD.
And yes, DD’s feats are good – but he has never displayed them against Yonkiral level fighters! How can you say he can keep up with them if you don’t know? And don’t come with Big Mam don’t having feats either – she MUST have feats given to her position.
This, btw, is the core statement of my whole argument.
Quote:Ah, so by that logic, in Chapter 551, you thought Big Mom was weaker than Doflamingo? Given that she was implied to be the next villain?
Actually, no. I’ve always assumed Big Mam’s arc to run like Crocodile’s, with smaller arcs inbetween – which happened. As for DD on the other hand, there barely is anything that can be done inbetween anymore, hence it’s very likely he’ll go down next.
As an example, Water 7 and Lucci would be what Punk Hazard is for DD.
Quote:In fact, I still think we'll be seeing Big Mom fight before we see Doflamingo fight. She'll be a stepping stone towards Doflamingo, because he's above her. I know, that might sound outrageous to you, but consider what Luffy says on this page. The Big Mom fight began before the Doflamingo fight. Just sayin'.
Luckily, we're likely to see the direction this is going soon enough. Yes, I do think we'll be seeing a Big Mom fight before we see a Doflamingo fight. And yes, I do think Doflamingo is above Big Mom.
The Wapol fight also started after Crocodile’s. Did that make Wapol a longer running villain?

I hope I didn't forget something.
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