Pages (6): « First « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 » Last » Post Reply  Post Thread 

Bleach chapter 525 discussion
Author Message
Zigsa
Junior Member
**


Posts: 22
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #31
RE:    Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Tom Ace Wrote:

Ajh77 Wrote:

professor Wrote:

Odd  that people are taken reading so much into what Unohana was saying never did I get the impression that Kubo was trying to imply that Zaraki as a kid was stronger than Unohana at that particular moment he was  fighting at his current limit it was a first time that he was able to let loose and she did not, as shown with her shikai not even being released,I believe that there is an ulterior meaning when she said "even I was not a match for you" leaning more to his thirst for battle. After experiencing battle with Unohana that sense of euphoria he felt  he wanted something stronger but she could not give it to him.As he got older that feeling eluded him and hence the shackling only when he reaches his full potential and fight someone who he can let loose again will  he surpass that sense of pleasure he had with Unohana in battle.

EDIT:She clearly considers him a worthy successor and saw the potential he had as a kid  ,why would she say "Finally surpass me so you can obtain new heights" if he was stronger than her in the past.
Unohana was a master of Zanjutsu with over 1000 styles under her control.  Add in the years of experience, years of training, and her natural bloodlust and you have someone Zaraki should not have been able to decidedly defeat with such immaturity and inexperience.  Besides, Zaraki was comfortably handling two Captain level Shikai in his sealed state.  It is not far-fetched to think he would have been able to do the same to Unohana's Shikai/Bankai in a much, much stronger state.

She said he can finally surpass her because he is currently much weaker than her.  She was not referring to his power as a child.




I think most of the disbelief came from people who thought Zaraki was low/mid tier captain at best, and were not convinced by Zaraki supporters logic and manga facts/hints.

Take a long read through DeathBerry forums or MangaHelper forums, they have so many people in shock over what happened.

At this time i accept what is going on hoping Kubo will at some point explain why Zaraki is so powerful even as a child.


It is entirely possible. I've always cautiously observed that the manga has always set up Kenpachi and Byakuya as a semi-direct comparison/contrast in terms of captains, but that doesn't tell us where they'd fit in the grand scheme of things (relative to other captains) and making wild theories in either direction was therefore less cautious than observing the manga was so far saying they're currently relative.

It's also telling that it's the same two captains that have been singled out apart from the other captains for the moment as well. Kenpachi's role is becoming clearer in a more direct fashion, Byakuya's is still a bit of a mystery. Then we have Kyouraku who is already doing things Yamamoto could never do, and we still have that Soul Society comment from Yamamoto regarding the strength of Ukitake and Kyouraku when combined (relative to any other... apparently a duo-versus-individual comparison), something we have yet to see.

The way things are going, especially by emphasising several times that the original generation was the strongest ever generation, the current generation of captains will surpass that original generation. This isn't simply about Kenpachi Zaraki surpassing Kenpachi Unohana. This is about Kyouraku and Zaraki being the first signs of a trend that'll lead the current generation of captains to go down in history as the strongest generation of captains to date... something that will only be achievable without the noose of that original generation around their necks (Yamamoto's gone, Kyouraku's quite starkly the antithesis of a lot of what Yamamoto stood for and is immediately brushing aside Yamamoto's influence to establish his own; also, whether or not Unohana dies, the influence of Kenpachi Unohana on the fate of the 11th division will definitely die after this fight).


~ aka Milareppa on the main OMF site.

This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 06:51 AM by Zigsa.

02-02-2013 06:49 AM
Send the author an email Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
professor
Junior Member
**


Posts: 47
Group: Registered
Joined: Mar 2011
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #32
RE:   Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Ajh77 Wrote:

professor Wrote:

Odd  that people are taken reading so much into what Unohana was saying never did I get the impression that Kubo was trying to imply that Zaraki as a kid was stronger than Unohana at that particular moment he was  fighting at his current limit it was a first time that he was able to let loose and she did not, as shown with her shikai not even being released,I believe that there is an ulterior meaning when she said "even I was not a match for you" leaning more to his thirst for battle. After experiencing battle with Unohana that sense of euphoria he felt  he wanted something stronger but she could not give it to him.As he got older that feeling eluded him and hence the shackling only when he reaches his full potential and fight someone who he can let loose again will  he surpass that sense of pleasure he had with Unohana in battle.

EDIT:She clearly considers him a worthy successor and saw the potential he had as a kid  ,why would she say "Finally surpass me so you can obtain new heights" if he was stronger than her in the past.
Unohana was a master of Zanjutsu with over 1000 styles under her control.  Add in the years of experience, years of training, and her natural bloodlust and you have someone Zaraki should not have been able to decidedly defeat with such immaturity and inexperience.  Besides, Zaraki was comfortably handling two Captain level Shikai in his sealed state.  It is not far-fetched to think he would have been able to do the same to Unohana's Shikai/Bankai in a much, much stronger state.

She said he can finally surpass her because he is currently much weaker than her.  She was not referring to his power as a child.




The use of the "finally surpass me" implies that there was a never a point in time that he was stronger than her, the use of surpass me once more will have been more appropriate.We know that Kenpachi as a kid was fighting at his limit while Unohana was not. This is  enough for me to come a conclusion that a young Zaraki was not stronger than Unohana as some are claiming.Their fight  in the past has not even been fully  shown yet since he has not received his scar.

This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 06:52 AM by professor.

02-02-2013 06:51 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
DEW
Junior Member
**


Posts: 33
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #33
RE:   Bleach chapter 525 discussion

How many of the Rukongai randoms do you think were even at the level of Vice Captains? We've been shown time and time again the difference between a Captain and a Vice Captain was huge, very huge. Even through one of the junior captains (Komamura). Kenpachi at the time when he fought Unohana had no lust for strength or battles, he was just cutting down people like he had to (how I interpreted it). So, he had no reason to become that much stronger than an average Captain. Hell, his level when he fought Ichigo/Komamura should have been fine. Why did he have to become so strong that he had the ability to eventually best Unohana?

Of course there is the possibility that he found others like him (but weaker), but that doesn't sit well with me.

Kenpachi wasn't looking for fights until he fought Unohana, though. So if his purpose was just to survive, he shouldn't have needed to attain that level of power. I understand it's possible, I just don't like the development.

Unohana claimed that Zaraki was the only one stronger than her. I'm inclined to believe that Yamamoto, Aizen, Isshin & RG are stronger than her, but they have abilities above swordsmanship. It's telling us that KidKenpachi was stronger than most of the Captains, without formal training, without even using his Zanpakuto's abilities.

We have Yamamoto who could probably take out half the Gotei 13 by himself, and then we have five RG members who could take out the Gotei 13 combined, and then we have each individual Captain who could easily take out their own division and anyone under Captain-class. Just by being Captain-class, Kenpachi should have been safe. He was safe.


This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 06:54 AM by DEW.

02-02-2013 06:52 AM
Send the author an email Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Evangelion[lovr]2.0
Member
***


Posts: 149
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #34
RE: Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Yeah probably the worst Bleach chapter I've ever read. Worse than FKT bull, worse than 0 Yammy. Worse than Ginjou being trolled by Shinigami. Sure if I were a Kenpachi fan that might not be the case... but I still think I'd be annoyed with the fact that some random Rukongai kid is stronger than any other captain.


So stupid. Kubo, what the hell is wrong with you? You were doing so well before this garbage. I'm just gonna assume that you got pressure from lack of sales to add in this for the Kenpachi fanboys.




Beautiful Signature designed by Sanagami<3
02-02-2013 07:06 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Narubi
Member
***


Posts: 177
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #35
RE:   Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Zigsa Wrote:

Yes, Kubo is setting up Zaraki to be the strongest captain of the current generation (and in the process surpass the Kenpachi of the strongest generation), however Kubo harping on constantly about the first generation being the strongest generation is hinting at the strong possibility that Kubo's aiming for the current generation of captains to surpass that generation of captains.

After all, the story is so far basically saying that the strongest generation of Division captains couldn't really do anything about the Vandenreich (on a permanent basis) suggesting that for the Vandenreich issue to be truly resolved, the current generation of captains has to achieve what the original generation failed to do. That means this generation has to surpass the original generation in some fashion or other. It just happens that the Kenpachi is a position relative to other captains and that the original Kenpachi is still alive so we get a direct, unsubtle comparison.


So what your saying with this is that basically Kubo is taking off on Kishimoto's old theme of the "Newer Generation surpassing the Old", in regards to the First Generation compared with the Current Generation of Cpt.'s.


02-02-2013 07:06 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Zigsa
Junior Member
**


Posts: 22
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #36
RE:    Bleach chapter 525 discussion

DEW Wrote:

It's telling us that KidKenpachi was stronger than most of the Captains, without formal training, without even using his Zanpakuto's abilities.


Well, Hitsugaya had already achieved subconscious manifestation of his zanpakutou spirit despite being a granny's boy who wanted nothing to do with shinigami or fighting. He didn't even have a physical zanpakutou at that point and he had already achieved a major stepping stone towards bankai without any training whatsoever. He didn't even know he had spiritual power, let alone that it was damaging people around him (especially his grandmother), until Matsumoto pointed it out.

And unlike Kenpachi he wasn't getting into fights all the time.

I don't see anything particularly shocking about Kenpachi being captain-class as a child, given that we know Hitsugaya was as well and had far less desire to use his reiatsu than Kenpachi did.

Kenpachi's issue was that he couldn't find meaning in what he was doing until he met Unohana. Hitsugaya's issue was that he didn't even want to acknowledge he had power until he had no choice. Yet, despite not wanting to acknowledge it or use it, Hitsugaya was still captain-class. Meanwhile, Kenpachi, who was actually using his, was also captain-class, and much more mentally prepared for it and active with it... if only he could find someone to properly use it on.

After all, the flashbacks didn't say Kenpachi never used his power until he met Unohana, Unohana was saying that Kenpachi never hit the limit of his power until he met Unohana. That means he had been using it prior to meeting her, he'd just never maxed out before.


Narubi Wrote:

Zigsa Wrote:

Yes, Kubo is setting up Zaraki to be the strongest captain of the current generation (and in the process surpass the Kenpachi of the strongest generation), however Kubo harping on constantly about the first generation being the strongest generation is hinting at the strong possibility that Kubo's aiming for the current generation of captains to surpass that generation of captains.

After all, the story is so far basically saying that the strongest generation of Division captains couldn't really do anything about the Vandenreich (on a permanent basis) suggesting that for the Vandenreich issue to be truly resolved, the current generation of captains has to achieve what the original generation failed to do. That means this generation has to surpass the original generation in some fashion or other. It just happens that the Kenpachi is a position relative to other captains and that the original Kenpachi is still alive so we get a direct, unsubtle comparison.


So what your saying with this is that basically Kubo is taking off on Kishimoto's old theme of the "Newer Generation surpassing the Old", in regards to the First Generation compared with the Current Generation of Cpt.'s.


I have no idea what Kishimoto has to do with what I said. I don't read Naruto. If Kishimoto has had a new generation surpass an elder generation, he won't have invented that concept. It's a concept that's been around for as long as humans have been recording stories.


~ aka Milareppa on the main OMF site.

This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 07:15 AM by Zigsa.

02-02-2013 07:09 AM
Send the author an email Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Evangelion[lovr]2.0
Member
***


Posts: 149
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #37
RE:     Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Zigsa Wrote:

DEW Wrote:

It's telling us that KidKenpachi was stronger than most of the Captains, without formal training, without even using his Zanpakuto's abilities.


Well, Hitsugaya had already achieved subconscious manifestation of his zanpakutou spirit despite being a granny's boy who wanted nothing to do with shinigami or fighting. He didn't even have a physical zanpakutou at that point and he had already achieved a major stepping stone towards bankai without any training whatsoever. He didn't even know he had spiritual power, let alone that it was damaging people around him (especially his grandmother), until Matsumoto pointed it out.

And unlike Kenpachi he wasn't getting into fights all the time.

I don't see anything particularly shocking about Kenpachi being captain-class as a child, given that we know Hitsugaya was as well and had far less desire to use his reiatsu than Kenpachi did.

Kenpachi's issue was that he couldn't find meaning in what he was doing until he met Unohana. Hitsugaya's issue was that he didn't even want to acknowledge he had power until he had no choice. Yet, despite not wanting to acknowledge it or use it, Hitsugaya was still captain-class. Meanwhile, Kenpachi, who was actually using his, was also captain-class, and much more mentally prepared for it and active with it... if only he could find someone to properly use it on.

After all, the flashbacks didn't say Kenpachi never used his power until he met Unohana, Unohana was saying that Kenpachi never hit the limit of his power until he met Unohana. That means he had been using it prior to meeting her, he'd just never maxed out before.


Bullshit.
Even with how advanced Hitsugaya was, and from then till now he has been training he still is far from being as strong as Kenpachi supposedly is. And that's with him having bankai, which Kenpachi still does not. I'd be fine with Kenny being captain class at that time, but top tier captain class? No. It doesn't make sense.




Beautiful Signature designed by Sanagami<3
02-02-2013 07:14 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
alekos23
Member
***


Posts: 132
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #38
RE: Bleach chapter 525 discussion

clearly it was his dreaded shikai effect taking place.uno forgot how to fight :P



Well,thats gooood.YAY!
02-02-2013 07:15 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Narubi
Member
***


Posts: 177
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #39
RE:  Bleach chapter 525 discussion

alekos23 Wrote:

clearly it was his dreaded shikai effect taking place.uno forgot how to fight :P


Or we just discovered more about Unohana's personality, and that she's like that one character from this one spy sci-fi manga where she's totally lesbian for hot women but totally straight for young boys.

It makes sense now why she lost to Kidpachi, it wasn't power but her own personal interests clouding her judgement.


02-02-2013 07:18 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Evangelion[lovr]2.0
Member
***


Posts: 149
Group: Registered
Joined: Dec 2012
Status: Offline
Reputation:
Post: #40
RE:   Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Narubi Wrote:

alekos23 Wrote:

clearly it was his dreaded shikai effect taking place.uno forgot how to fight :P


Or we just discovered more about Unohana's personality, and that she's like that one character from this one spy sci-fi manga where she's totally lesbian for hot women but totally straight for young boys.

It makes sense now why she lost to Kidpachi, it wasn't power but her own personal interests clouding her judgement.

99% positive that this explanation will be better than the one Kubo gives.




Beautiful Signature designed by Sanagami<3
02-02-2013 07:19 AM
Send the author a private message Find all posts by this author Quote this message in a reply
Pages (6): « First « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 » Last »

Post Reply  Post Thread 

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites
Rate This Thread:

Forum Jump: