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Bleach chapter 525 discussion
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Tom Ace
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Post: #21
RE:  Bleach chapter 525 discussion

DEW Wrote:

It's ridiculous for him to be one of the strongest Shinigami when he was like under 100 years (seems to be that way).


Under 100 years as captain?

If so i don't see why that matters. Yama-jii before becoming a captain (commander) had to be almost as strong as he was if not stronger in his fight with Royd

02-01-2013 12:03 PM
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DEW
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RE:   Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Tom Ace Wrote:

DEW Wrote:

It's ridiculous for him to be one of the strongest Shinigami when he was like under 100 years (seems to be that way).


Under 100 years as captain?

If so i don't see why that matters. Yama-jii before becoming a captain (commander) had to be almost as strong as he was if not stronger in his fight with Royd
Kenpachi looked like he was less than 100 YEARS OLD when he beat Unohana. That's without Shikai/Bankai. He only fought fodder too.


02-01-2013 12:58 PM
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Tom Ace
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RE:    Bleach chapter 525 discussion

DEW Wrote:

Tom Ace Wrote:

DEW Wrote:

It's ridiculous for him to be one of the strongest Shinigami when he was like under 100 years (seems to be that way).


Under 100 years as captain?

If so i don't see why that matters. Yama-jii before becoming a captain (commander) had to be almost as strong as he was if not stronger in his fight with Royd
Kenpachi looked like he was less than 100 YEARS OLD when he beat Unohana. That's without Shikai/Bankai. He only fought fodder too.



I see.

Then it's not a matter of "Zaraki is too damn strong as a kid" it should be "why is Zaraki so damn strong as a kid?"

People on others forums all say how it's bs Zaraki is that powerful instead of asking why is he strong.

02-01-2013 01:07 PM
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DEW
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Post: #24
RE:     Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Tom Ace Wrote:

I see.

Then it's not a matter of "Zaraki is too damn strong as a kid" it should be "why is Zaraki so damn strong as a kid?"

People on others forums all say how it's bs Zaraki is that powerful instead of asking why is he strong.
I'm afraid that we're not GOING to get a reason as to why Zaraki is that strong - not for a while. Unohana only knows he was super strong when they met, so she knows nothing. If she doesn't know then the only people who could possibly know who Zaraki is are:

Aizen
Urahara
RG (sans Hikifune probs)
Soul King
Isshin
Bach

Now, it could be that Bach actually knew about Kenpachi's full strength (same w/ Yamamoto), but why would he let Kenpachi live if that was the case? Unohana made it somewhat clear that it was her doing that Kenpachi only 'loses consciousness', so why didn't Bach eliminate Kenpachi like he did Yamamoto? I suppose that was because it was RoydBach, but you'd think actual Bach would have the foresight to take out Kenpachi, permanently.

Unless the RG feel like telling Ichigo something about Kenpachi for no god damn reason, we're not going to get a reason for this random KidPachi = Strongest for a LOOOONG time, if ever.


02-01-2013 02:25 PM
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Tom Ace
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RE:      Bleach chapter 525 discussion

DEW Wrote:

Tom Ace Wrote:

I see.

Then it's not a matter of "Zaraki is too damn strong as a kid" it should be "why is Zaraki so damn strong as a kid?"

People on others forums all say how it's bs Zaraki is that powerful instead of asking why is he strong.
I'm afraid that we're not GOING to get a reason as to why Zaraki is that strong - not for a while. Unohana only knows he was super strong when they met, so she knows nothing. If she doesn't know then the only people who could possibly know who Zaraki is are:

Aizen
Urahara
RG (sans Hikifune probs)
Soul King
Isshin
Bach

Now, it could be that Bach actually knew about Kenpachi's full strength (same w/ Yamamoto), but why would he let Kenpachi live if that was the case? Unohana made it somewhat clear that it was her doing that Kenpachi only 'loses consciousness', so why didn't Bach eliminate Kenpachi like he did Yamamoto? I suppose that was because it was RoydBach, but you'd think actual Bach would have the foresight to take out Kenpachi, permanently.

Unless the RG feel like telling Ichigo something about Kenpachi for no god damn reason, we're not going to get a reason for this random KidPachi = Strongest for a LOOOONG time, if ever.


We also need to know how a little kid got a Zanpaktou.

02-01-2013 02:39 PM
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Narubi
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Post: #26
RE:       Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Tom Ace Wrote:
We also need to know how a little kid got a Zanpaktou.


He pulled it out of his tube sock lol.
Just like Harry did the sorting hat.


This post was last modified: 02-01-2013 02:55 PM by Narubi.

02-01-2013 02:45 PM
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DEW
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Post: #27
RE: Bleach chapter 525 discussion

If he was born with enough reiatsu, he could have just taken it from someone.


This post was last modified: 02-01-2013 02:48 PM by DEW.

02-01-2013 02:48 PM
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Ajh77
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Post: #28
RE:  Bleach chapter 525 discussion

professor Wrote:

Odd  that people are taken reading so much into what Unohana was saying never did I get the impression that Kubo was trying to imply that Zaraki as a kid was stronger than Unohana at that particular moment he was  fighting at his current limit it was a first time that he was able to let loose and she did not, as shown with her shikai not even being released,I believe that there is an ulterior meaning when she said "even I was not a match for you" leaning more to his thirst for battle. After experiencing battle with Unohana that sense of euphoria he felt  he wanted something stronger but she could not give it to him.As he got older that feeling eluded him and hence the shackling only when he reaches his full potential and fight someone who he can let loose again will  he surpass that sense of pleasure he had with Unohana in battle.

EDIT:She clearly considers him a worthy successor and saw the potential he had as a kid  ,why would she say "Finally surpass me so you can obtain new heights" if he was stronger than her in the past.
Unohana was a master of Zanjutsu with over 1000 styles under her control. Add in the years of experience, years of training, and her natural bloodlust and you have someone Zaraki should not have been able to decidedly defeat with such immaturity and inexperience. Besides, Zaraki was comfortably handling two Captain level Shikai in his sealed state. It is not far-fetched to think he would have been able to do the same to Unohana's Shikai/Bankai in a much, much stronger state.

She said he can finally surpass her because he is currently much weaker than her. She was not referring to his power as a child.



02-02-2013 05:46 AM
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Zigsa
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Post: #29
RE:  Bleach chapter 525 discussion

DEW Wrote:

It's ridiculous for him to be one of the strongest Shinigami when he was like under 100 years (seems to be that way).


Hitsugaya's at least 50 years old, so while Kenpachi looked like a child, he had probably been around for decades at the very least.

Think about this. Hitsugaya comes from the safest district of the Rukongai and Kenpachi comes from the absolute worst district of the Rukongai where you either have to fight to survive or find someone who'll fight for your survival.

Despite having a very sheltered life (idyllic by Rukongai standards) and experiencing nothing worse than people ignoring him or being rude to him, Hitsugaya was still captain-class and on the verge of manifesting his zanpakutou spirit without any formal intervention. And that was without any survival pressure on him. At the other end of the scale, we have Kenpachi living in an environment where he's got to use his power to survive from an early age and build himself to a point where nothing in that hellhole can ever threaten him because he's become so very strong. That's before we get into the vast difference in their natures (Hitsugaya is more peace-loving, Kenpachi loves looking for fights) and also before we get into the question of the origin of the zanpakutou which is seems to be rather relevant to Zaraki's past (since he had it before he met Unohana).

If Hitsugaya is guaranteed to be stronger than the current captain-commander in just a century's time, having come from such a pressure-free background, then a much wilder personality from a much more vicious background could easily have been doing better than that at the same age.

Hitsugaya has already set the ballpark for something like this to happen. So has Ichigo's insight into Child!Aizen. Even Gin with his demolishing of a third seat after only a year training in the academy and Yachiru being such a very young vice-captain.

This whole issue about a child Kenpachi already being stronger than 'the Divisions' Kenpachi is relative to nothing but Unohana and Zaraki (for instance, it tells us absolutely nothing about either Unohana or Zaraki relative to someone like Aizen), and the chapter went out of its way to point out what an apathetic state Unohana had fallen into by the time she met Zaraki. We also know Zaraki hit his limit when fighting Unohana: that, in fact, is the source of the problem between them. It's not like Unohana is saying Zaraki easily surpassed her back then. She's saying that by him hitting his very limit (his limit at that particular time) back then he could have killed her if he had wanted to but that it's *now* (in this present time) that he needs to (and will) surpass her.

Kenpachi having fought Unohana as a child? No, I'm not thrilled by this. I'm not pre-disposed to like child characters, so learning this isn't something that I'm particularly enjoying. That said, it's not as though the story hasn't already set up the possibility of something like this happening. It's also not as if the story has currently told us anything relative to a power level we do know a bit about (Aizen's level of power): how did Unohana and Kenpachi rate back then compared to Aizen pre-timeskip? Kubo's avoided telling us that.

One other thing though: I've seen people saying this is pandering to the novel. My reaction on reading the chapter is that it actually debunks what we know of the novel. The novel said Kenpachi adjusting his reiatsu to his enemy's level is his power but Kubo is telling us it's his prison (implying his power is something else, even if it's related to this, it's not exactly this). It's like saying Narita picked up on something Kubo had been doing but instead of putting 2+2 together to get 4, Narita actually got 5. From what I've heard about the novel, this chapter doesn't seem to legitimise it at all, but it does suggest Narita ran off in the wrong direction with a legitimate concept.

Yes, Kubo is setting up Zaraki to be the strongest captain of the current generation (and in the process surpass the Kenpachi of the strongest generation), however Kubo harping on constantly about the first generation being the strongest generation is hinting at the strong possibility that Kubo's aiming for the current generation of captains to surpass that generation of captains.

After all, the story is so far basically saying that the strongest generation of Division captains couldn't really do anything about the Vandenreich (on a permanent basis) suggesting that for the Vandenreich issue to be truly resolved, the current generation of captains has to achieve what the original generation failed to do. That means this generation has to surpass the original generation in some fashion or other. It just happens that the Kenpachi is a position relative to other captains and that the original Kenpachi is still alive so we get a direct, unsubtle comparison.


~ aka Milareppa on the main OMF site.

This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 06:37 AM by Zigsa.

02-02-2013 06:29 AM
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Tom Ace
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RE:   Bleach chapter 525 discussion

Ajh77 Wrote:

professor Wrote:

Odd  that people are taken reading so much into what Unohana was saying never did I get the impression that Kubo was trying to imply that Zaraki as a kid was stronger than Unohana at that particular moment he was  fighting at his current limit it was a first time that he was able to let loose and she did not, as shown with her shikai not even being released,I believe that there is an ulterior meaning when she said "even I was not a match for you" leaning more to his thirst for battle. After experiencing battle with Unohana that sense of euphoria he felt  he wanted something stronger but she could not give it to him.As he got older that feeling eluded him and hence the shackling only when he reaches his full potential and fight someone who he can let loose again will  he surpass that sense of pleasure he had with Unohana in battle.

EDIT:She clearly considers him a worthy successor and saw the potential he had as a kid  ,why would she say "Finally surpass me so you can obtain new heights" if he was stronger than her in the past.
Unohana was a master of Zanjutsu with over 1000 styles under her control.  Add in the years of experience, years of training, and her natural bloodlust and you have someone Zaraki should not have been able to decidedly defeat with such immaturity and inexperience.  Besides, Zaraki was comfortably handling two Captain level Shikai in his sealed state.  It is not far-fetched to think he would have been able to do the same to Unohana's Shikai/Bankai in a much, much stronger state.

She said he can finally surpass her because he is currently much weaker than her.  She was not referring to his power as a child.




I think most of the disbelief came from people who thought Zaraki was low/mid tier captain at best, and were not convinced by Zaraki supporters logic and manga facts/hints.

Take a long read through DeathBerry forums or MangaHelper forums, they have so many people in shock over what happened.

At this time i accept what is going on hoping Kubo will at some point explain why Zaraki is so powerful even as a child.

02-02-2013 06:36 AM
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