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Abortion - MangaAddict - 07-03-2007 03:15 PM

Its been brought up in the other topics so discuss it here. Is it right or wrong?? Should it be legal, how to prevent it, etc...


RE: Abortion - wildstriker - 07-03-2007 03:57 PM

Hm..., don't you think this kind of topic is kinda adultery here...?
Well, anyway, in my view, I think it's a wrong thing to do because what to be aborted by them would turn into a life later on...
Morally, it's wrong since the one that brought up a seed of a baby doesn't responsible for them.
Legally though, could be debated, but I don't really want to go further in this one...


RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-04-2007 04:33 AM

adultery isn't exactly the correct word choice but I get what you mean, but if a person understands what abortion is then I believe that they should have the ability to form their own opinion.

There are two ways to look at it:

1. You are killing what could be a life if given the chance to grow.
2. You are helping to lives but preventing something you are not ready for.

I am pro choice because a baby could be the result of rape, broken condom, birth control not working and such and you shouldn't have to raise a life you are not ready to raise and if you want the best for your child, it would be best to keep them out of a life of misery.

Of course I am a little bias because I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for abortion.


RE: Abortion - MangaAddict - 07-04-2007 07:04 AM

I agree with excel. Rape and such are logical reasons for abortion. However people can abuse their freedom to have an abortion. Instead of using condoms or birth control, they get pregnant and have an abortion. Some do it multiple times. Once I can understand, but more than that I find gross. Yes if you let it live longer it will turn into a human being but at the point of abortion its still an it. However, if a woman gets an abortion at 6 months or so, I find that really disturbing cause those are actual babies with heart beats and everything. If we were to completely ban abortions (especially in countries like the us where birth control is not free from the government) then women would get abortions illegally resulting in their own deaths...


RE: Abortion - waterFALLs - 07-04-2007 04:54 PM

lol, I just had this as an essay topic for english : P

There's no real 100% way to prevent pregnancy for now.. @_@ I saw on the news ...There's this dam (I think?) that like... Kills pen0rs when they try to go in... (Not literally of course)

I personally think it's okay nonetheless, for the reasons excel said =D


RE: Abortion - geyter - 07-04-2007 10:19 PM

I voted yes, because you asked if it was morally wrong. Of course morals would adhere that killing an unborn is wrong, and i agree with that. But that of course doesn't mean it should be illegal. By rape or accident, a pregnancy can happen to people who are not willing to have babies and the gouvernment should provide options that these people can take. If the government doesn't than a black market thing will rise up and pose a threat to the wellbeing of the people.
Anyway just because it goes against morals doesn't mean i wouldn't do it. Eating at McD is highly immoral too (with the whole killing the rainforest and all) but i still do it occasionally.

Friends of mine had an abortion, and they are still together because of it.
Other friends descided to keep their baby and broke up because of it...
But the kid is 7 now, and he's the coolest little guy you can imagine. The father has no regrets what so ever.
So it has ups and downs eighter way i guess.
So... i guess what i mean is, yes it is immoral to kill an unborn child. But in many ways letting a child be raised by unloving or uncaring parents is even more wrong.


RE:  Abortion - Draik - 07-05-2007 04:26 AM

geyter Wrote:

I voted yes, because you asked if it was morally wrong. Of course morals would adhere that killing an unborn is wrong, and i agree with that. But that of course doesn't mean it should be illegal. By rape or accident, a pregnancy can happen to people who are not willing to have babies and the gouvernment should provide options that these people can take. If the government doesn't than a black market thing will rise up and pose a threat to the wellbeing of the people.
Anyway just because it goes against morals doesn't mean i wouldn't do it. Eating at McD is highly immoral too (with the whole killing the rainforest and all) but i still do it occasionally.

Friends of mine had an abortion, and they are still together because of it.
Other friends descided to keep their baby and broke up because of it...
But the kid is 7 now, and he's the coolest little guy you can imagine. The father has no regrets what so ever.
So it has ups and downs eighter way i guess.
So... i guess what i mean is, yes it is immoral to kill an unborn child. But in many ways letting a child be raised by unloving or uncaring parents is even more wrong.


Morally wrong to kill a child, or give it a crappy life of misery and hate?
I think that the latter is more ethically important.
RE:   Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-05-2007 07:33 AM

Draik Wrote:

geyter Wrote:

I voted yes, because you asked if it was morally wrong. Of course morals would adhere that killing an unborn is wrong, and i agree with that. But that of course doesn't mean it should be illegal. By rape or accident, a pregnancy can happen to people who are not willing to have babies and the gouvernment should provide options that these people can take. If the government doesn't than a black market thing will rise up and pose a threat to the wellbeing of the people.
Anyway just because it goes against morals doesn't mean i wouldn't do it. Eating at McD is highly immoral too (with the whole killing the rainforest and all) but i still do it occasionally.

Friends of mine had an abortion, and they are still together because of it.
Other friends descided to keep their baby and broke up because of it...
But the kid is 7 now, and he's the coolest little guy you can imagine. The father has no regrets what so ever.
So it has ups and downs eighter way i guess.
So... i guess what i mean is, yes it is immoral to kill an unborn child. But in many ways letting a child be raised by unloving or uncaring parents is even more wrong.


Morally wrong to kill a child, or give it a crappy life of misery and hate?
I think that the latter is more ethically important.


Took the words right out of my mouth.
RE: Abortion - Blaze - 07-05-2007 06:00 PM

hehe seriously nice speech geyter xD excatly wut i was almost going to say...Abortion should be illegal but killing an unborn child is a sin (not really)...and they should've support him/she with full support,and if u knew that there might be a chance that birth control not working of condom broke..u shouldn't even done it..and also i think the baby should still be given birth to,even if the family is too poor or rape.


RE:   Abortion - geyter - 07-05-2007 06:41 PM

Draik Wrote:


Morally wrong to kill a child, or give it a crappy life of misery and hate?
I think that the latter is more ethically important.


Yeah, that's what i meant. Abortion should be available because i'd never want to see a child suffer like that, but nobody can deny that it's still morally wrong.

The people i feel very sorry for are the guys who wanna adopt. All these teenage girls having abortions all over the place and a couple that has been trying for twenty years can't have a child. Must be the most frustrating thing in the world. Especially if you look at it from a biological viewpoint, it's deep in our core genes to want to reproduce and safen your genetic code for a new generation.

There should be a halfway model, like a psych test parents have to take that tells them if they are mentally fit to have children. If not, they go to adoption. Seems kinda cruel, but having kids raised by mentally unfit parents is rather crueler. The most defining element to personality disorder is the environment you are raised in.
RE: Abortion - MangaAddict - 07-05-2007 09:13 PM

^^ Though I agree that parents should be given some sort of psych test it would never work because parents would argue that what makes a good parent is different in everyone eyes...
Another reason I think abortion should be legal is because some teen moms dont want to give their children to other people when in a few years they would be able to raise them themselves, so instead of giving them up for adoption, they keep them only to do a bad parenting job... Ive actually seen this happen twice. Some people do not like the idea that their child is out there and they cant see them.


RE:  Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 01:51 AM

Blaze Wrote:

hehe seriously nice speech geyter xD excatly wut i was almost going to say...Abortion should be illegal but killing an unborn child is a sin (not really)...and they should've support him/she with full support,and if u knew that there might be a chance that birth control not working of condom broke..u shouldn't even done it..and also i think the baby should still be given birth to,even if the family is too poor or rape.


The thing is Blaze, nobody knows if there is going to be a chance of birth control failure or broken condoms because that is just something you can't realize beforehand so you can't decide whether you should do it or not based on that. I don't think that the baby should be born in case of a poor family or rape because there are just some things you don't want your baby exposed to. There are many things that can be considered worse than death itself, and having to suffer because your mother wasn't ready for you and can't support you is one of them.

Heck the truth is that humans have overpopulated the world because of situations like this where the mother has to give her child up to social services because she can't support her children, and sometimes that can be even worse because of foster families. Foster families that abuse, rape, and scar the kids forever emotionally and physically. That is also one reason I don't like the idea of premarital sex because once you're married there is no other time that you are more ready to have a child.
RE: Abortion - Draik - 07-06-2007 11:45 AM

I think all of this can be resolved by the simple answering of one question: Why is killing someone wrong?


RE: Abortion - MangaAddict - 07-06-2007 11:46 AM

Why is killing someone wrong, are you serious??


RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 11:59 AM

I am sure he is, which seems more wrong, to just kill someone, or to put them out of their misery. The first is wrong because you are taking away a life from someone, a chance at happiness, sadness, whatever emotion or experience that they have yet to experience you have taken away from them they will no longer be able to live the rest of their lives. On the latter you are seen as playing the role of god, who are you to decide whether or not the one being killed will not have a future that makes up for their misery that they will definately have? The main debate between pro and anti choice advocates is what time frame is it possible to abort the baby? At what point in time does the embryo become an actual life? And then that point in time is what should be considered murder.


RE:  Abortion - Draik - 07-06-2007 12:01 PM

MangaAddict Wrote:

Why is killing someone wrong, are you serious??


Does it seem like I am laughing? But I can see how it could seem like a joke, if it were coming form anyone else. As a note, I only joke when there are smilies, and abnormal punctuation in my posts like ?!, or !!!
RE: Abortion - MangaAddict - 07-06-2007 12:02 PM

I agree with excel, killing an unborn baby is a lot different then killing a person...

Draik Wrote:

Does it seem like I am laughing? But I can see how it could seem like a joke, if it were coming form anyone else. As a note, I only joke when there are smilies, and abnormal punctuation in my posts like ?!, or !!!

Ill keep that in mind...
RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:10 PM

He was just trying to relate the two actions together to make us see the big picture, at least that is what I think he was trying to do with the severity seeming nature of his post.


RE:  Abortion - Draik - 07-06-2007 12:15 PM

excel-kleinwald Wrote:

He was just trying to relate the two actions together to make us see the big picture, at least that is what I think he was trying to do with the severity seeming nature of his post.


We've just been saying that ruining a person's life by giving them one that they don't want is bad. But we haven't at all thought about why it's wrong to kill an unborn baby. We just naturally assume that it's wrong, even I don't know the answer to if it's right or wrong to kill an unborn child because I never gave it much thought, and I can't seem to think of a better time than now. It's like we've weighed only one side of the scale and not the other.
RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:21 PM

Indeed might as well get started on that then... it is hard to say whether it is right or not to kill an unborn child. Essentially what we are doing is taking away another thread in the tapestry of life and preventing that thread from reaching its true potential. I do not really want to say whether it is right to keep the life from being miserable or not anymore because the more and more we go into this debate the more I think that we do not know whether or not this child will live happily and fully or not.


RE: Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:23 PM

my opinion on abortion is that it should be allowed
would it be better if the child were born to unready parents or teenagers?
would a baby in the streets die anyway? yes they would but before that there would be alot of suffering to go along w/ it so thats even worse


RE: Abortion - Raijuu - 07-06-2007 12:25 PM

mm... yeah i kind of agree with that useless but its still mean..lol :nods:


RE:  Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:26 PM

Useless Wrote:

my opinion on abortion is that it should be allowed
would it be better if the child were born to unready parents or teenagers?
would a baby in the streets die anyway? yes they would but before that there would be alot of suffering to go along w/ it so thats even worse



Yes but you have no idea whatsoever what this life's future is, whether it will suffer as expected at the hands of unready and unwilling parents or if there is some good fortune and everything in its life turns out well.
RE:   Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:30 PM

excel-kleinwald Wrote:

Useless Wrote:

my opinion on abortion is that it should be allowed
would it be better if the child were born to unready parents or teenagers?
would a baby in the streets die anyway? yes they would but before that there would be alot of suffering to go along w/ it so thats even worse



Yes but you have no idea whatsoever what this life's future is, whether it will suffer as expected at the hands of unready and unwilling parents or if there is some good fortune and everything in its life turns out well.

its future does not matter...
if someone turns out to be homeless or the president it doesnt change the value of the life so the future of the child should not come into question

and no matter what the situation of the childs parents, if they are not ready then something bad will happen to the child. of course it wont always be the extreme of being abandoned somewhere but anything from that to depression can occur. plus you must consider the feelings of the parents. what if they dont want a child? what if there lives arent ready for that? if they are in highschool and they have a kid their futures are gone..if u want to think about the childs future try thinking about the parents
RE: Abortion - SilverKunai - 07-06-2007 12:33 PM

Abortion shouldn't be allowed. Simply destroying life is wrong enough. But why is it wrong? An unborn baby is still considered life. Life is endless and it shouldn't be wasted.

But what about in over populated countries? Or soon to be over populated countries. You wouldn't be able to have more than a certain amount of kids so if you go over the limit, you either get jailed or getting an abortion.

So is abortion right when it involves your pain? Is it wrong when you are forced to do it?


RE:  Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:35 PM

SilverKunai Wrote:

Abortion shouldn't be allowed. Simply destroying life is wrong enough. But why is it wrong? An unborn baby is still considered life. Life is endless and it shouldn't be wasted.

But what about in over populated countries? Or soon to be over populated countries. You wouldn't be able to have more than a certain amount of kids so if you go over the limit, you either get jailed or getting an abortion.

So is abortion right when it involves your pain? Is it wrong when you are forced to do it?

if u say abortion is wrong then it cant be right in any situation...
if u are forced into abortion then it is wrong...and i say that while at the same time thinking abortion should be allowed

RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:36 PM

Useless,

Again, you cannot decide yourself what one's future is going to be. You cannot say that something's future does not matter, everyone's future can make a difference in the world, a tough situation early on in life could lead to the child wanting to change things and make a big difference in the world. A parent doesn't know if they are ready to have a child or not because they have never had one. How would they have the personal experience of having one if they never had one? You say that the future of a life doesn't change its value, you are wrong. Not every life has the same value, that is a fact of the world, some of us are not as important as others and you need to realize that.


RE:   Abortion - SilverKunai - 07-06-2007 12:38 PM

Useless Wrote:

SilverKunai Wrote:

Abortion shouldn't be allowed. Simply destroying life is wrong enough. But why is it wrong? An unborn baby is still considered life. Life is endless and it shouldn't be wasted.

But what about in over populated countries? Or soon to be over populated countries. You wouldn't be able to have more than a certain amount of kids so if you go over the limit, you either get jailed or getting an abortion.

So is abortion right when it involves your pain? Is it wrong when you are forced to do it?

if u say abortion is wrong then it cant be right in any situation...
if u are forced into abortion then it is wrong...and i say that while at the same time thinking abortion should be allowed



Ah. Let me ask you this. Would it be wrong if you were aborted by your parents when you were still unborn?
RE:    Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:41 PM

SilverKunai Wrote:

Useless Wrote:

SilverKunai Wrote:

Abortion shouldn't be allowed. Simply destroying life is wrong enough. But why is it wrong? An unborn baby is still considered life. Life is endless and it shouldn't be wasted.

But what about in over populated countries? Or soon to be over populated countries. You wouldn't be able to have more than a certain amount of kids so if you go over the limit, you either get jailed or getting an abortion.

So is abortion right when it involves your pain? Is it wrong when you are forced to do it?

if u say abortion is wrong then it cant be right in any situation...
if u are forced into abortion then it is wrong...and i say that while at the same time thinking abortion should be allowed



Ah. Let me ask you this. Would it be wrong if you were aborted by your parents when you were still unborn?


That is really an unfair question to ask someone since all you are trying to do is make them think of a situation that is impossible to fathom since it didn't happen.
RE:  Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:42 PM

excel-kleinwald Wrote:

Useless,

Again, you cannot decide yourself what one's future is going to be. You cannot say that something's future does not matter, everyone's future can make a difference in the world, a tough situation early on in life could lead to the child wanting to change things and make a big difference in the world. A parent doesn't know if they are ready to have a child or not because they have never had one. How would they have the personal experience of having one if they never had one? You say that the future of a life doesn't change its value, you are wrong. Not every life has the same value, that is a fact of the world, some of us are not as important as others and you need to realize that.

yes, you are right in saying i cant determine what the child will do..
but that doesnt mean what i say doesnt have a point
and in saying some lives are more important than others...u really cant say that. unless you have been in other peoples shoes u cant say they are more or less important that you. everyone is important to someone and being important to more people than someone else doesnt make you better then them.
and you keep talking about the childs choices in life...what about the parents? they are a key issue in this subject and you cant force your opinions on them by saying that their child may be important. if you want to use that logic then i should be able to persuade a couple not wanting abortion into abortion by saying their child might suffer. and thats just not gonna happen
RE:    Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:43 PM

SilverKunai Wrote:

Useless Wrote:

SilverKunai Wrote:

Abortion shouldn't be allowed. Simply destroying life is wrong enough. But why is it wrong? An unborn baby is still considered life. Life is endless and it shouldn't be wasted.

But what about in over populated countries? Or soon to be over populated countries. You wouldn't be able to have more than a certain amount of kids so if you go over the limit, you either get jailed or getting an abortion.

So is abortion right when it involves your pain? Is it wrong when you are forced to do it?

if u say abortion is wrong then it cant be right in any situation...
if u are forced into abortion then it is wrong...and i say that while at the same time thinking abortion should be allowed



Ah. Let me ask you this. Would it be wrong if you were aborted by your parents when you were still unborn?

i will answer this with my own opinion over this whole situation
no it would not be wrong.
if im saying that a person should be able to abort their child then the same holds true for my parents
really its all about ethics if u want to ask something like that and i can stick to my beliefs no matter who its talking about
RE: Abortion - MangaAddict - 07-06-2007 12:46 PM

Since Im a girl and you guys arnt... I can say that if I were to get pregnant at my age I would get an abortion. I know I would be a crappy mom. And if I had the baby there is no way I could give it up for adoption. I would hate knowing that my child is out there somewhere and I may never see them. I know that sounds sort of selfish but Im sure thats how a lot of teenage girls think...


RE:   Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:46 PM

Useless Wrote:

excel-kleinwald Wrote:

Useless,

Again, you cannot decide yourself what one's future is going to be.  You cannot say that something's future does not matter, everyone's future can make a difference in the world, a tough situation early on in life could lead to the child wanting to change things and make a big difference in the world.  A parent doesn't know if they are ready to have a child or not because they have never had one.  How would they have the personal experience of having one if they never had one?  You say that the future of a life doesn't change its value, you are wrong.  Not every life has the same value, that is a fact of the world, some of us are not as important as others and you need to realize that.

yes, you are right in saying i cant determine what the child will do..
but that doesnt mean what i say doesnt have a point
and in saying some lives are more important than others...u really cant say that. unless you have been in other peoples shoes u cant say they are more or less important that you. everyone is important to someone and being important to more people than someone else doesnt make you better then them.
and you keep talking about the childs choices in life...what about the parents? they are a key issue in this subject and you cant force your opinions on them by saying that their child may be important. if you want to use that logic then i should be able to persuade a couple not wanting abortion into abortion by saying their child might suffer. and thats just not gonna happen


But that is exactly what you just did! Now you are contradicting yourself! You really have not put yourself in other people's shoes to realize that there are more important people than you. I realize that there are more important people than me. People who change other's lives with their own choices and accomplishments and their positions in life. Not everyone has the same oppurtunity to do the same things, we aren't that lucky, this is a twisted world where babies do die on the streets, therefore that life was less important because it didn't change the world, influence the world, for all we know the parents abandoned it and have already forgotten about it.
RE: Abortion - SilverKunai - 07-06-2007 12:49 PM

It all depends on your views on life. Something that makes you feel wronged can be a daily thing in another's life. Whether or not we think its wrong or not, Abortion happens every single day, and we can't change it right here. If you were to ask a specialist in the abortion field, would they say they enjoy their jobs? Or simply a way to make money?

The question I asked was probably sided and unfair but questions are never stupid or never fair. Questions are there to be asked, and then to answered. Questions are never stupid because someone in somewhere does not know the answer to it.


RE: Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:51 PM

too much quoting so @ excel-

what i said isnt contradictory, im just saying u cant determine the worth of someone until you have lived their life so u cant say they are better or worse than you
its true that some people are better or worse off than you even when they dont deserve it, but think about it. middle class people are the core of our society, working in all the jobs that keep the city going. if they decided to stop working then the city would fall apart meaning they have the same worth as the people who run the govenment. of course that example is easy to see whereas the prospect of homeless people being worth the same it much harder to see...but you said it yourself that from hard times, a person may decide to change things for the better and make a difference in the world


RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-06-2007 12:56 PM

Why can't I determine someone's worth without living in their life? Just because I didn't have the same exact thought processes doesn't mean that I can realize their way of thinking things. Everyone can have the same potential, it is possible, but not everybody has the same value. You give the example of all of these middle calss workers quitting. what if just one quit compared to a leader of a country quitting. Do they both have the same impact on the country?


RE:  Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:57 PM

excel-kleinwald Wrote:

Why can't I determine someone's worth without living in their life? Just because I didn't have the same exact thought processes doesn't mean that I can realize their way of thinking things. Everyone can have the same potential, it is possible, but not everybody has the same value. You give the example of all of these middle calss workers quitting. what if just one quit compared to a leader of a country quitting. Do they both have the same impact on the country?

yes if a leader quit then it would be just as devastating but much easier to recover from
another person can fill in that job but you would lack the amount of people to fill the void left by all the regular workers
RE:  Abortion - SilverKunai - 07-06-2007 12:57 PM

Useless Wrote:

too much quoting so @ excel-

what i said isnt contradictory, im just saying u cant determine the worth of someone until you have lived their life so u cant say they are better or worse than you
its true that some people are better or worse off than you even when they dont deserve it, but think about it. middle class people are the core of our society, working in all the jobs that keep the city going. if they decided to stop working then the city would fall apart meaning they have the same worth as the people who run the govenment. of course that example is easy to see whereas the prospect of homeless people being worth the same it much harder to see...but you said it yourself that from hard times, a person may decide to change things for the better and make a difference in the world


You can't really determine the worth of your own life either. Others would say how much other people are worth and will never agree with you. Humans are a confusing species because we don't have a definite answer to ourselves
RE: Abortion - Useless - 07-06-2007 12:59 PM

umm what kunai said is true...so u cant determine your own value either..but i fear we are getting off topic..(really?)
so lets just stop this discussion or move it to a new thread


RE: Abortion - excel-kleinwald - 07-07-2007 04:04 AM

Move to what thread? This is completely on topic because it has to do with trying to justify our opinions on abortion. And on what you said to me before, it wouldn't be just as devastating because the leader would have a much more devastating affect on the whole country, and you can't compare it to multiple people quitting because then it wouldn't be an equal comparison. You can find just about anybody to fill in a middle class job, you can't just pick anyone to be a nation's leader.