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The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Printable Version

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The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 04:58 AM

Because we have the time and the space...

Overrated:
Crocodile (Very overrated)
Shanks (A bit overrated)

Underrated:
Moria
Hodi
Big Mam
Blackbeard

Moria > Crocodile and Blackbeard > Shanks.
In fact, BB > anyone currently.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 05:24 AM

Oh you did not...

Underrated= Chopper
Overrated=Marco


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 05:31 AM

Chopper is pretty much fine, I think...
Marco... I'd say he is admiral level *cough*
I believe he is capable of defeating one, yes.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 05:34 AM

Blashphemy.
Chopper is the 4th strongest of the crew.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 05:36 AM

Umm... no.
Franky can easily beat him, probably even Usopp.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 05:39 AM

Oh, get me into the Usoop vs Chopper and I will gladly prove you that Chopper>Usoop.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 05:43 AM

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that in general Usopp > Chopper.
However, in this specific matchup, yes, Usopp beats Chopper.
Chopper's feats and moves don't help him much to beat Usopp, while Usopp's on the other hand certainly do.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 05:45 AM

How Chopper's feats don't help him when he has been proved Pre and Post time-skip to be fast and faster (Alabasta arc he literally saved usoop from being baseball'd) than Usoop. Post time Skip he got Horn point which trolls usoop's existence.

Usoop isn't that fast to setup the battlefield after Chopper has been used Horn point and went underground. Horn point however is very fast.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 05:49 AM

Going underground doesn't help against Usopp, Daruma proves that.
Daruma has also shown that Usopp can set up traps rather fast, and that once his enemy is caught in them he is pretty much done.

Besides, Chopper will believe that Usopp has 8000 followers and fear himself to death ^^


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 05:50 AM

Daruma didn't went Underground against Usoop, he couldn't because the whole area was already used by Chopper against him.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 05:52 AM

The Skull Grass Bomb will work against Chopper, too.

---

We need more people... it's more fun if like 15 are shouting at each other ^^


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 05:54 AM

Skull Grass worked because the tunnels were connected and Usoop had the hole to attack literally at his feet thanks to chopper.

In a Chopper vs Usoop scenario the hole will be distant and Usoop wont even get near it.

I agree.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 05:57 AM

Then, what keeps Usopp from using the plenty of time in which Chopper is underground to prepare his traps?


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - alekos23 - 12-11-2012 06:25 AM

lol chopper vs ussop :D
hmm... i think caesar is a bit underrated, though its probably because i love mad scientist :derp:
marco and shank's crew is super overrated(thus far) from what i recall from the One Piece tournament :lol:


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 06:28 AM

CC is pretty good, yes - his fighting skill isn't really good though, he easily falls for tricks and such stuff.

As for Shanks' crew, he is a Yonkou after all, his crew should be able to balance crews like WB's, that indicates they're strong.


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 06:34 AM

Oben Wrote:

Then, what keeps Usopp from using the plenty of time in which Chopper is underground to prepare his traps?




That is the thing, he can't
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Evangelion[lovr]2.0 - 12-11-2012 06:36 AM

Chopper = Most Underrated.

Ussop = Most stupid.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 06:37 AM

And why not?
Tell me what ways Chopper has avoid things like those Landmine Plants?
And what does he have against sleeping gas, for example?


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Evangelion[lovr]2.0 - 12-11-2012 06:41 AM

Sleeping Gas won't work as well on his Monster mode as it would on a human, just like tranquilizer darts for humans don't work on bulls and stuff.


His CoO will help him avoid the landmine plants.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 06:44 AM

Sleeping gas worked easily on giant-sized kids. Why not on Monster Point, too? It is half-human, after all.

And CoO?


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - alekos23 - 12-11-2012 06:44 AM

i think his sense of smell would be a better argument than CoO :lol:


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 06:49 AM

alekos23 Wrote:

i think his sense of smell would be a better argument than CoO :lol:


How would he know what he has to smell out for?
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - alekos23 - 12-11-2012 06:54 AM

Oben Wrote:



How would he know what he has to smell out for?

well, i dunno, i just said that cause chopper hasnt shown CoO (yet), so his sense of smell which he has shown, makes a better argument :P
arent they plants after all?he could smell them (not that he'd know what they are like you said :P) but it wouldnt be an easy kill i think :shrug:
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 06:55 AM

Not easy, sure, but I don't see how Chopper can handle traps and such stuff.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Damanos - 12-11-2012 07:14 AM

Usopp>Giant kids in drug withdrawal>Chopper. :hurr:

Underrated like hell: Caesar, Jimbei.
Overrated: Lawl.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 07:16 AM

Give Chopper a break, those kids are strong and Usoop failed to dominate them twice.

Chopper was a true bro not wanting to harm with the most ironic point :hmph:

It would be cool if CC had a screentime vs anyone except fodder (usoop) and Luffy.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - alekos23 - 12-11-2012 07:19 AM

CC would be real good as a reccuring villain of another manga, or at least pre TS :lol:
Z from the movie seems overrated/overhyped :P


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 07:22 AM

CC is good, it's just that (while he is very strong) he doesn't have the mentality for fighting.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Damanos - 12-11-2012 07:26 AM

Usopp was being a bro too, he purposely put them to sleep instead of hurting him. He probably has some sort of poison he could have used. Or fire star.

Z is just a tool to hype up Doflamingo. Who in turn is just going to end up a tool to hype up Lawl. Derp.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - alekos23 - 12-11-2012 07:28 AM

hmph. i may hate to say it, but i'd prefer kid's alliance offpaneling doflamingo, so just lawl and luffy dont do it :lol:


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 07:28 AM

Law hyped even more?
I think Surgeon of Death would explode ^^


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - diezdragon - 12-11-2012 08:05 AM

@Oben

Law is going to get hyped for until the point when he gets roflstomped by DD and Luffy has to save the day. :nods:

alekos23 Wrote:

CC would be real good as a reccuring villain of another manga, or at least pre TS :lol:
Z from the movie seems overrated/overhyped :P


From what I've seen, Z is going to be the most awesome/strongest OP movie villain ever. Spoiler:
He doesn't even get knocked out by Luffy in the end, Kizaru appears and zaps him to death.

RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 08:09 AM

I hope so, too - some nice stomping would be welcome.

That thing with Z sounds good, too.


RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - alekos23 - 12-11-2012 08:11 AM

diezdragon Wrote:


From what I've seen, Z is going to be the most awesome/strongest OP movie villain ever. Spoiler:
He doesn't even get knocked out by Luffy in the end, Kizaru appears and zaps him to death.


yeah, so i've heard too. thing is, he's still kind of serving as hype for someone else, like vergo ended up :shrug: ironically so, maybe:lol:
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 08:15 AM

Spoiler:

Is it even known if DD is responsible for Z's wounds?
As for Kizaru, he deserves some hype, I think...

RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Damanos - 12-11-2012 10:19 AM

Spoiler:

Well, we know that it was "an incredibly powerful pirate and future Shichibukai" who used a DF power to cut his arm off.

Basically, only Doflamingo and Mihawk have the potential to beat an admiral of the ones we know of, and Mihawk almost certainly doesn't use a DF.

RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 10:50 AM

Buggy :derp:


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-11-2012 11:34 AM

In what universe is Hody underrated? The guy sucks, the mere mention of his name overrates his existence. Goda failed hard in creating Hody and what's his face Van Der Decken Persie


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Evangelion[lovr]2.0 - 12-11-2012 12:01 PM

Mihawk is overrated until it is cannon that he is Admiral level.
Law is overrated until Surgeon of Death stops reading OP

CC is underrated until he fights someone other than the MC
Smoker is underrated until he stops being used to hype a Supernova.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-11-2012 12:15 PM

Mihawk is underrated till its canon that Shanks is in fact on his level. Mihawk > Shanks = Sakazuki, that's what's been portrayed thus far and that's how it shall be until Shanks is revealed to be on Mihawk's level :)


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - peleihno - 12-11-2012 12:50 PM

Mihawk and underrated don't belong in the same sentence.

It's never been portrayed that Mihawk's over Shanks. Lol, stop trolling Shanks.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Evangelion[lovr]2.0 - 12-11-2012 01:20 PM

Strawhats what the hell? Lol I thought you were logical.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-11-2012 01:24 PM

I am logical D:

Yonkou title =/= a fighting title
Greatest Swordsman = a fighting title

Mihawk is a swordsman and the greatest at it, AS STATED BY ODA!!!
Shanks is a swordsman

Logic says Mihawk > Shanks, personally I think its Mihawk = Shanks


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - peleihno - 12-11-2012 01:32 PM

Yonkou are the four greatest and most powerful pirates in the world. It's a testament of individual strength first, then followed by crew strength and allies. They are the most powerful among pirates. It is a fighting title, if you will.

As for the lovely WGS card and the title argument in general.

Keep in mind what I said about the Yonkou, Garp said they were the most powerful pirates. Mihawk may be a swordsman but he's also a pirate, that is irrefutable. Granted the shichibukai are technically privateers, however, they are considered no more than pirates by the Marines and WG at the end of the day. To the point, Mihawk is a pirate, p-i-r-a-t-e.

Yonkou > all other pirates as stated in canon. That being said, Shanks > Mihawk because he is a pirate and thus falls into the power ranking of pirates. The Yonkou are recognized as superior over all of the aforementioned, thus meaning Mihawk is inferior to Shanks because, you know, TITLES.

L O G I C



Derp.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Insane Soul - 12-11-2012 01:40 PM

Strawhats, did you ever see the parody I posted on this forum?

Kinda funny the Mihawk>Shanks :lmao:


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-11-2012 01:46 PM

A Yonkou title is not one that can be gained by a one man individual crew, that much has been made obvious. A Yonkou is greatly aided by his crew and allies and there is where influence comes in. Whitebeard wasn't simply feared cause he was a Yonkou, he was feared because he commanded the world's strongest crew and the number of his allies were great in numbers. If he came to the war alone, he wouldn't achieved squat and the Marines wouldn't have dreaded a war with him, what made him truly fearsome was the strength of crew he commanded as well as his powers.

Read on to what Garp says, "The Marines and The Shichibukai exist to counterbalance them" and "Their power is so influential that "Three Powers" become unbalanced, the peace of the world would crumble" Garp is obviously not only speaking of them as individuals but what they are capable of as crews. Unless of course you believe The Marines and The Shichibukai exist to balance the monstrously strong captains without taking the crews into the equation?

Logic says Mihawk > Shanks


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - peleihno - 12-11-2012 01:59 PM

For the record, I'm not making this titles argument seriously, sarcasm falls flat on the internet.

strawhats Wrote:

[b]A Yonkou title is not one that can be gained by a one man individual crew, that much has been made obvious. [/b]A Yonkou is greatly aided by his crew and allies and there is where influence comes in. Whitebeard wasn't simply feared cause he was a Yonkou, he was feared because he commanded the world's strongest crew and the number of his allies were great in numbers. If he came to the war alone, he wouldn't achieved squat and the Marines wouldn't have dreaded a war with him, what made him truly fearsome was the strength of crew he commanded as well as his powers.


@Bolded: When did I say that?

Any pirate is greatly aided by his crew. There's been no denial to that point. The title of PK is not " gained by a one man individual crew, that much has been made obvious". Roger didn't become Pirate King on his own, that doesn't mean his title isn't a genuine testament of his individual power.Pirate King like Yonkou means a few things. It means immense strength, influence, a powerful crew, powerful allies, well, you get the point.

The core meaning of the Yonkou title is strength above all other pirates aside from other Yonkou, then things get dicy. Obviously their crews come into further down the line, no doubt. There's more to it then just strength, of course.
Quote:
Read on to what Garp says, "The Marines and The Shichibukai exist to counterbalance them" and "Their power is so influential that "Three Powers" become unbalanced, the peace of the world would crumble" Garp is obviously not only speaking of them as individuals but what they are capable of as crews. Unless of course you believe The Marines and The Shichibukai exist to balance the monstrously strong captains without taking the crews into the equation?



@bolded: That's called expanding on the concept.

You're ignoring what I said.

Me Wrote:
It's a testament of individual strength first, then followed by crew strength and allies.


Obviously, I'm not leaving the crew out of the equation.

Quote:
Logic says Mihawk > Shanks


No.

I don't see how the title of WGS surpasses that of a Yonkou.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-11-2012 02:08 PM

There is nothing to suggest that a Yonkou is one of the 4 strongest Pirate captains, in fact it more than hints at group power rather than individual. The fact that it takes influence and crew power into the equation means it is no indicator of individual strength and thus would fail when compared to titles of strength. In fact Whitebeard having an individual title of being the world's strongest man pretty much confirms that


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - peleihno - 12-11-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:
There is nothing to suggest that a Yonkou is one of the 4 strongest Pirate captains



Except it was said by Garp. Seemingly, you're saying he needed to add in that little word "captain", which is just nitpicking of another level.

strawhats Wrote:

, in fact it more than hints at group power rather than individual. The fact that it takes influence and crew power into the equation means it is no indicator of individual strength and thus would fail when compared to titles of strength. In fact Whitebeard having an individual title of being the world's strongest man pretty much confirms that


@Bolded: So taking in other factors excuses individual power as the main factor? Or even as a factor? Yes, that's logical.

No, that doesn't confirm anything other than Newgate was top dog.


If you want to see it like that, be my guest. It's blatantly missing the point, but be my guest.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-11-2012 02:26 PM

Its not that he didn't add "Captains" but because of what he said that I quoted earlier on.

That's because there is no set power level for the individual captains. To reach the level of a Yonkou, a captain would need a strong crew and a lot of influence, thus you have nothing to factor strength on. Shanks may be stronger than Mihawk but you cant get that from Shanks being a Yonkou, when Mihawk excels in their fighting style.

Ok

What point am I missing?


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - peleihno - 12-11-2012 02:37 PM

strawhats Wrote:


That's because there is no set power level for the individual captains. To reach the level of a Yonkou, a captain would need a strong crew and a lot of influence, thus you have nothing to factor strength on. Shanks may be stronger than Mihawk but you cant get that from Shanks being a Yonkou, when Mihawk excels in their fighting style.

Ok

What point am I missing?


I think I already said I'm not seriously arguing that titles decide the entirety of the Mihawk/Shanks debate. I never was. Seems that you think that I am, but I'm not. This is more an argument of which title is superior, I suppose.

@bolded: That Yonkou are the most powerful pirates, plain and simple. Yonkou means four kings/four emperors. It refers to the individual first and foremost. You say the title requires a powerful crew and allies to attain, but so does the title of PK and yet that is a testament to Roger's own power.
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Tokoya - 12-11-2012 03:39 PM

peleihno Wrote:

strawhats Wrote:


That's because there is no set power level for the individual captains. To reach the level of a Yonkou, a captain would need a strong crew and a lot of influence, thus you have nothing to factor strength on. Shanks may be stronger than Mihawk but you cant get that from Shanks being a Yonkou, when Mihawk excels in their fighting style.

Ok

What point am I missing?


I think I already said I'm not seriously arguing that titles decide the entirety of the Mihawk/Shanks debate. I never was. Seems that you think that I am, but I'm not. This is more an argument of which title is superior, I suppose.

@bolded: That Yonkou are the most powerful pirates, plain and simple. Yonkou means four kings/four emperors. It refers to the individual first and foremost. You say the title requires a powerful crew and allies to attain, but so does the title of PK and yet that is a testament to Roger's own power.


This is how I see it, Mihawk is the better *Swordsman*, but Shanks is stronger *Overall*
RE:    The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-11-2012 09:15 PM

Tokoya Wrote:

This is how I see it, Mihawk is the better *Swordsman*, but Shanks is stronger *Overall*


I agree with this... seems the most likely.

As for the Yonkou debate, I think it's the following:
They have the four strongest pirate crews, not necessarily the four strongest individuals.
BUT: If they hadn't been extremely strong individuals, they'd never have gained the postition of Yonkou - hence it's likely they are also the top 4 in terms of strength.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - diezdragon - 12-11-2012 11:52 PM

Common sense says that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk; and that the Yonkou captains are the four strongest pirates in the world. It wouldn't be interesting plot-wise to see Luffy and Co beat down a gang of semi-strong fodders rather than one super-strong Yonkou.

Story-wise, we have no evidence on who's the stronger one. We can't judge either of them from their title, and we've never seen them go all out in a fight. Not against each other, not against anyone.


RE:     The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - zetruz - 12-12-2012 04:34 AM

Oben Wrote:
As for the Yonkou debate, I think it's the following:
They have the four strongest pirate crews, not necessarily the four strongest individuals.
BUT: If they hadn't been extremely strong individuals, they'd never have gained the postition of Yonkou - hence it's likely they are also the top 4 in terms of strength.

I was with you up until the bolded part. I agree that they are the "greatest" due to the strength of their crews and allies, and I agree that they wouldn't have such strong crews and allies if they weren't monstrously strong themselves. However, I would say this means they're almost guaranteed to be among the top 10 people in the world (and top ~7 pirates). However, look at Doflamingo; we have no idea how powerful his organization is. And look at Mihawk; we know he actively chooses not to have followers. So I would put these in the exact same league, along with the old Admirals; the Yonkiral level. Kizaru, Akainu, Kuzan, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Whitebeard, Big Mom, Shanks, Kaidou, Dragon. These, I think, were the strongest people in the world pre-TS. (Yes, I think they were all stronger than post-Gura Blackbeard, since he hadn't mastered it yet.)
The Yonkou are all among the strongest pirates in the world, for sure. But I don't agree that their infamy and all that means they're necessarily the top four. It just means they're among the top ~6, if you ask me. I think Doflamingo is stronger than Big Mom, and that she - whether she knows it or not - is working for him.

Edit: Oh, and hello guys. =)
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-12-2012 05:26 AM

Thank you Zet, I don't remember the last time we agreed :lol:


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-12-2012 05:36 AM

Hey Zet, nice to see you're alive in this wasteland of the forums.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-12-2012 06:05 AM

Nice that you found here, zetruz.

I might need to specify my case more: I believe that out of the active pirates the Yonkou hold the greatest strength. This isn't the case for Doflamingo or Mihawk - though I strongly disagree in DD > Big Mam (as you might already know ^^) or any other Yonkou, there is not the slightest indication for it (btw, this isn't connected to your theory of Big Mam working for DD. That could even be the case if he was weaker). As for Mihawk, we have never seen him active pirating, we don#t even know if he was what we can call a pirate.


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - zetruz - 12-12-2012 06:58 AM

Oben Wrote:

Nice that you found here, zetruz.

Thank m1hawkgasm, he sent me here. But I didn't want to pay him back, so I didn't type his name in as referrer. Buhahahahaa!


Oben Wrote:
I might need to specify my case more: I believe that out of the active pirates the Yonkou hold the greatest strength. This isn't the case for Doflamingo or Mihawk - though I strongly disagree in DD > Big Mam (as you might already know ^^) or any other Yonkou, there is not the slightest indication for it (btw, this isn't connected to your theory of Big Mam working for DD. That could even be the case if he was weaker).

There also isn't any indication that he's weaker than Big Mom, either. It's never ever been said that the Yonkou title is higher than the Shichibukai title. Don't get me wrong, the average Yonkou strength is much higher than the average Shichibukai strength, of course, but the bottom Shichibukai do not define the top Shichibukai.
I think Oda has made a point of showing that titles in One Piece are rather superficial. Jinbe one-shot Moria, and Jinbe is presumably way, way below Mihawk and Doflamingo. So the power gap between Moria and Doflamingo is beyond description. The same goes for Vice Admirals. Imagine Garp in his prime - he was roughly on Roger's level. Compare that to Vergo - or rather, don't. You barely can. Titles are extremely vague.
I would imagine the same goes for the Yonkou title - roughly prime Whitebeard was quite a lot stronger than Big Mom. I mean, old-age Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world. And that was after he had fallen from Roger's level.

So, the Yonkou level is never stated to be above that of the Shichibukai level. From what we have seen, Doflamingo is scarily powerful - think about it; he can control even extremely strong Haki users with a single finger, and he can cut (huge) limbs with the same motion. That's a ridiculously strong ability. The latter - the slicing attack - is an extremely strong attack that is instantaneous and invisible. Doflamingo could cut Big Mom's head off by moving a single finger. That's his ability. What reason do we have to think Big Mom can survive that attack? Nothing but hype. Nothing at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm usually in favor of considering hype because I think Oda does it for a reason, but I disagree that Big Mom's hype is above that of Doflamingo's. And in this case, unless Big Mom is a Logia (which makes it much trickier), Doflamingo is shown to be able to slice her up by moving nothing but his finger. I think Doflamingo is constantly underrated, because people think that his Shichibukai title makes him automatically below the Yonkou (not saying you're doing this).

Oben Wrote:
As for Mihawk, we have never seen him active pirating, we don#t even know if he was what we can call a pirate.

Actually, because he is a Shichibukai, he is (or was) by definition a pirate; clicky! The Shichibukai are, or were, all pirates. =)
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-12-2012 07:13 AM

zetruz Wrote:

There also isn't any indication that he's weaker than Big Mom, either. It's never ever been said that the Yonkou title is higher than the Shichibukai title. Don't get me wrong, the average Yonkou strength is much higher than the average Shichibukai strength, of course, but the bottom Shichibukai do not define the top Shichibukai.


Yes, but we know Big Mam's strength is big enough to make her able to play in the very top league. As for DD, we can only assume that. The only thing we know is that he is stronger than VA/Commander-level, but not necessarily Yonkiral-level (let's use that ^^) - but there's much space for DD to fit inbetween. And this is were I think he sits.

Quote:

I think Oda has made a point of showing that titles in One Piece are rather superficial. Jinbe one-shot Moria, and Jinbe is presumably way, way below Mihawk and Doflamingo. So the power gap between Moria and Doflamingo is beyond description. The same goes for Vice Admirals. Imagine Garp in his prime - he was roughly on Roger's level. Compare that to Vergo - or rather, don't. You barely can. Titles are extremely vague.



Hm, you need to differ between title and position.
Yonkou Shichibukai are titles, Vice-Admiral is a position (Garp doesn't serve as an example though, since he simply turned a promotion down, hence can be considered admiral). I would consider a Marine rank more stable powerwise than the Shichibukai - and after all, the Yonkou we've seen were somewhat equal.

Quote:
I would imagine the same goes for the Yonkou title - roughly prime Whitebeard was quite a lot stronger than Big Mom. I mean, old-age Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world. And that was after he had fallen from Roger's level

.

I agree with this. But I would consider WB/Roger in a whole category above Yonkiral.

Quote:
So, the Yonkou level is never stated to be above that of the Shichibukai level. From what we have seen, Doflamingo is scarily powerful - think about it; he can control even extremely strong Haki users with a single finger, and he can cut (huge) limbs with the same motion. That's a ridiculously strong ability. The latter - the slicing attack - is an extremely strong attack that is instantaneous and invisible. Doflamingo could cut Big Mom's head off by moving a single finger. That's his ability. What reason do we have to think Big Mom can survive that attack? Nothing but hype. Nothing at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm usually in favor of considering hype because I think Oda does it for a reason, but I disagree that Big Mom's hype is above that of Doflamingo's. And in this case, unless Big Mom is a Logia (which makes it much trickier), Doflamingo is shown to be able to slice her up by moving nothing but his finger. I think Doflamingo is constantly underrated, because people think that his Shichibukai title makes him automatically below the Yonkou (not saying you're doing this).



It's a BIG stretch to believe that just because DD could cut off Oars leg he can also behead Big Mom. Renember, Oars fell for Moria, who you above consider an example for weakness among the Shichibukai ^^
There are tons of possibilities it wouldn't work. The most simply is her to dodge. Or to block. Haki has never been displayed against the cut - and since there are obious similarities to law's cuts, it could very well help. Etc., etc.

Quote:
Actually, because he is a Shichibukai, he is (or was) by definition a pirate; clicky! The Shichibukai are, or were, all pirates. =)



Kuma?
RE:    The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - diezdragon - 12-12-2012 07:25 AM

Oben Wrote:


Quote:
Actually, because he is a Shichibukai, he is (or was) by definition a pirate; clicky! The Shichibukai are, or were, all pirates. =)


Kuma?



Yeah, him too.
RE:     The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-12-2012 07:27 AM

diezdragon Wrote:

Yeah, him too.


I know he was referred to as a pirate, but was he really one? In Sabo's flashback he was already with Dragon.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - peleihno - 12-12-2012 07:52 AM

All the shichibukai were active pirates at some point. His past with the RA doesn't mean he wasn't a pirate later on.


RE:    The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - zetruz - 12-12-2012 08:09 AM

Oben Wrote:
Yes, but we know Big Mam's strength is big enough to make her able to play in the very top league. As for DD, we can only assume that. The only thing we know is that he is stronger than VA/Commander-level, but not necessarily Yonkiral-level (let's use that ^^) - but there's much space for DD to fit inbetween. And this is were I think he sits.

Actually, if we're going to be technical, we don't know that about Big Mom. We know she has that political title, but we don't know that she earned it through personal strength. We can only assume that. =)


Oben Wrote:
Hm, you need to differ between title and position.
Yonkou Shichibukai are titles, Vice-Admiral is a position (Garp doesn't serve as an example though, since he simply turned a promotion down, hence can be considered admiral). I would consider a Marine rank more stable powerwise than the Shichibukai - and after all, the Yonkou we've seen were somewhat equal.

I agree that Marine ranks are more stable than the Shichibukai and Yonkou, since you have to have Haki to be a Vice Admiral, but that doesn't mean it isn't a title. The Yonkou all have the title/position of Yonkou, and the Vice Admirals all have the title/position of Vice Admiral. They are interchangeable; you're saying there's a difference where there isn't really one of worth.
And Garp does count, that's my whole point. He's a Vice Admiral who shows that you can be ludicrously strong and still be "just" a Vice Admiral. This proves that titles are unreliable, even among the Marines. Or look at when Saul fought Kuzan. Both were Vice Admirals, but Saul said when Kuzan approached that Kuzan was a monster. They were worlds apart, despite having the same rank. And that's in an organization where we both agree that the titles/positions are more telling than the Shichibukai and Yonkou titles are. See what I mean? That's why I think titles are so overrated. He's shown it time and time again.


Oben Wrote:
I agree with this. But I would consider WB/Roger in a whole category above Yonkiral.

Power-wise, yes - but despite that, Whitebeard was a Yonkou. He was a Yonkou that was way stronger than all other Yonkous. See my point? Same position/title/rank, but greater strength.


Oben Wrote:
It's a BIG stretch to believe that just because DD could cut off Oars leg he can also behead Big Mom. Renember, Oars fell for Moria, who you above consider an example for weakness among the Shichibukai ^^

I'm talking basic mechanical strength. If Big Mom isn't a Logia, and has the same "flesh hardness" as Oars, then Doflamingo can cut her head off. Simple as that. Maybe she can use Tekkai or CoA on a level high enough to block the attack, but what if Doflamingo takes her by surprise? It's an invisible and insanely quick attack. That's not a stretch at all, it's pure logic.


Oben Wrote:
There are tons of possibilities it wouldn't work. The most simply is her to dodge. Or to block. Haki has never been displayed against the cut - and since there are obious similarities to law's cuts, it could very well help. Etc., etc.

Of course CoA could help, and Tekkai could help (though my opinion is that Jyabura's Tekkai would be laughed at by Doflamingo's slicing attack), etc. Of course it can be dealt with. But that's all assuming she has the time and strength to. Doflamingo's feats are immense.


Feats-wise, we know Doflamingo can control (and laugh at) CoA users. Jozu couldn't do a thing. Doflamingo also played around with Vice Admirals in the Shichibukai meeting. And Atmos was forced to attack his friends (not a confirmed Haki user, though).
He's been shown to cut huge limbs apart at the flick of a finger. So dodging that attack is indescribably difficult, and Big Mom isn't small. Her best bet is to block the attack (unless she is a Logia), but how do you block an invisible and incredibly fast attack? Let's say, for simplicity's sake, that she


Big Mom's hype is based on her title, which is fair. But her title is not by definition above Doflamingo's title, because both are political ones of different natures. The whole Big Mom > Doflamingo notion is based on a percieved difference in rank, but that ranking difference is fan-created, not Oda-created. He has never said that the Yonkou are by definition stronger than the Shichibukai. We can generalize and say that the one well-known Yonkou (Whitebeard) is stronger than all the well-known Shichibukais. But by that logic, I can say that the Vice Admiral ranking is higher than the Admiral ranking, since prime Garp > Akainu. See how vague it is? It's a reasoning riddled with flaws. We have seen part of Doflamingo's ability, and though he hasn't used it on absolute top-level fighters, he has used it on Jozu, who couldn't do a thing against it. He was fodderized by Doflamingo. Aokiji didn't manage to do that until Jozu was busy worrying about Whitebeard and Marco.

Feats-wise, Doflamingo has been able to fodderize insanely strong people, and he did it inside Mariejoa. Big Mom's only feats are the ability to get followers. She shares that ability with people like Doflamingo, Luffy, Whitebeard, and Buggy. It doesn't prove anything, especially since Doflamingo has done the same.
Hype-wise, people tend to think that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of perceived differences in title rankings. I disagree. I don't think the titles of Yonkou and Shichibukai are comparable at all, they don't reside in the same dimensions. They aren't in competition. And in fact, I think Doflamingo has more hype than Big Mom. Not because of titles, but because of how Oda has been dropping hints throughout the manga about Doflamingo's strength and influence.

This is why I think Doflamingo is one of the absolute strongest people in the world, and won't be dealt with for a long time. Indeed, I think he is in effect the actual fourth Yonkou, because I think he "owns" Big Mom (though she may not know it herself).


Oben Wrote:
I know he was referred to as a pirate, but was he really one? In Sabo's flashback he was already with Dragon.

Yes, he was an undercover revolutionary. He still was when he was a Shichibukai. That doesn't make him not a Shichibukai; one can be both. In fact, he was. =)
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-12-2012 11:30 PM

zetruz Wrote:

Actually, if we're going to be technical, we don't know that about Big Mom. We know she has that political title, but we don't know that she earned it through personal strength. We can only assume that. =)


We can guess - one of her underlings, Bobbins, single-handedly wiped out an island, and people like Pekoms and Tamago fear her very much, and neither are weaklings themselves (or rather, Pekoms isn't, Tamago isn't proven yet. but as he seems to be Pekoms' superior, he's probably stronger).
That indicates her strength to be massive.

Quote:
I agree that Marine ranks are more stable than the Shichibukai and Yonkou, since you have to have Haki to be a Vice Admiral, but that doesn't mean it isn't a title. The Yonkou all have the title/position of Yonkou, and the Vice Admirals all have the title/position of Vice Admiral. They are interchangeable; you're saying there's a difference where there isn't really one of worth.
And Garp does count, that's my whole point. He's a Vice Admiral who shows that you can be ludicrously strong and still be "just" a Vice Admiral. This proves that titles are unreliable, even among the Marines. Or look at when Saul fought Kuzan. Both were Vice Admirals, but Saul said when Kuzan approached that Kuzan was a monster. They were worlds apart, despite having the same rank. And that's in an organization where we both agree that the titles/positions are more telling than the Shichibukai and Yonkou titles are. See what I mean? That's why I think titles are so overrated. He's shown it time and time again.

Power-wise, yes - but despite that, Whitebeard was a Yonkou. He was a Yonkou that was way stronger than all other Yonkous. See my point? Same position/title/rank, but greater strength.


Sure. But that doesn’t rule out that the Yonkou are the four strongest pirates (see the beginning of the discussion). On the other hand, we know a Yonkou needs a great amount of strength to be called Yonkou in the first place, it is a title you earn. Hence, while the title doesn’t define a certain level for all that have it, it certainly does define a minimum level. This, btw, doesn’t apply for Marine ranks, since they are necessarily not earned but given, but it does for Shichibukai.

Quote:
I'm talking basic mechanical strength. If Big Mom isn't a Logia, and has the same "flesh hardness" as Oars, then Doflamingo can cut her head off. Simple as that. Maybe she can use Tekkai or CoA on a level high enough to block the attack, but what if Doflamingo takes her by surprise? It's an invisible and insanely quick attack. That's not a stretch at all, it's pure logic.


Obviously her head can be cut of. But he question is, can it actually be done just like that? Probably not, since there are various ways why it wouldn’t – surprise attacks tend not to work to well against Haki users.And I don’t consider it a stretch to assume she can use at least the basics of CoO. We know Haki to very common among the BM-pirates, therefore the chances for her to be able to use CoO is high.


Quote:
Of course CoA could help, and Tekkai could help (though my opinion is that Jyabura's Tekkai would be laughed at by Doflamingo's slicing attack), etc. Of course it can be dealt with. But that's all assuming she has the time and strength to. Doflamingo's feats are immense.


Feats-wise, we know Doflamingo can control (and laugh at) CoA users. Jozu couldn't do a thing. Doflamingo also played around with Vice Admirals in the Shichibukai meeting. And Atmos was forced to attack his friends (not a confirmed Haki user, though).
He's been shown to cut huge limbs apart at the flick of a finger. So dodging that attack is indescribably difficult, and Big Mom isn't small. Her best bet is to block the attack (unless she is a Logia), but how do you block an invisible and incredibly fast attack? Let's say, for simplicity's sake, that she



If she would fall for an attack like that, she wouldn’t be worth getting called Yonkou – but she is called Yonkou,and as I emphasized above and will also below, that means she must have a certain amount of feats.
Dodging becomes more easy with CoO, which she is likely to have. Also, all of the Yonkou are probably a good deal better than Jozu (and Jozu is better than Atmos and the average VA), so that feat doesn’t really make DD as strong as Big Mam.

Quote:
Big Mom's hype is based on her title, which is fair. But her title is not by definition above Doflamingo's title, because both are political ones of different natures. The whole Big Mom > Doflamingo notion is based on a percieved difference in rank, but that ranking difference is fan-created, not Oda-created. He has never said that the Yonkou are by definition stronger than the Shichibukai. We can generalize and say that the one well-known Yonkou (Whitebeard) is stronger than all the well-known Shichibukais. But by that logic, I can say that the Vice Admiral ranking is higher than the Admiral ranking, since prime Garp > Akainu. See how vague it is? It's a reasoning riddled with flaws. We have seen part of Doflamingo's ability, and though he hasn't used it on absolute top-level fighters, he has used it on Jozu, who couldn't do a thing against it. He was fodderized by Doflamingo. Aokiji didn't manage to do that until Jozu was busy worrying about Whitebeard and Marco.


It is more than just hype. We have good reasons to believe that Big Mam has strength of her own, reasons besides her title:
- To be able to gain that position in the first place
- To be able to control such a huge crew. This is an important aspect, since we know how easily brutal conflict sparkles even in small crews, take for exampleLuffy vs. Usopp in Water 7.
- To be able to maintain her position. How many strong people try to take a Yonkou down? Probably dozens, if not more. She must have strength to surivive, and not only to survive, but keep her title.
See where I’m coming from?

Quote:
Feats-wise, Doflamingo has been able to fodderize insanely strong people, and he did it inside Mariejoa. Big Mom's only feats are the ability to get followers. She shares that ability with people like Doflamingo, Luffy, Whitebeard, and Buggy. It doesn't prove anything, especially since Doflamingo has done the same.
Hype-wise, people tend to think that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of perceived differences in title rankings. I disagree. I don't think the titles of Yonkou and Shichibukai are comparable at all, they don't reside in the same dimensions. They aren't in competition. And in fact, I think Doflamingo has more hype than Big Mom. Not because of titles, but because of how Oda has been dropping hints throughout the manga about Doflamingo's strength and influence.


I never said that DD was weak – simply, that being above a VA and Jozu doesn’t put him on the level of an Admiral. Take, for Luffy and Wadatsumi. Both were able to knock out the Krakenwith the same technique – does that mean they have the same strength? No.
As for Big Mam, see the top of my post. She’s more than just hype, by manga facts,


Quote:
This is why I think Doflamingo is one of the absolute strongest people in the world, and won't be dealt with for a long time. Indeed, I think he is in effect the actual fourth Yonkou, because I think he "owns" Big Mom (though she may not know it herself).


That is very unlikely imo. Everything the story points towards is that Doflamingo will be the next main villain (see the current chapter, his henchmen and everyone is heading to Dressrosa) – and with that, his strength is most likely lower than the later opponents.


God, that took long -.-
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Ajh77 - 12-12-2012 11:37 PM

Well, I can safely say DD is quite overrated atm. I understand Oda is hinting at DD being a beast but it seems some are passing it off as fact that DD is on some kind of godly tier. I can only imagine what is to come when we see him fighting seriously....


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - DEW - 12-13-2012 12:04 AM

Ajh77 Wrote:

Well, I can safely say DD is quite overrated atm.  I understand Oda is hinting at DD being a beast but it seems some are passing it off as fact that DD is on some kind of godly tier.  I can only imagine what is to come when we see him fighting seriously....
He hints that he is capable of taking on an Admiral. That isn't really 'godly'.

Also, Law is underrated. He can probably one-shot everyone sans Kizaru, Akainu & Eneru.
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Ajh77 - 12-13-2012 02:05 AM

DEW Wrote:

Ajh77 Wrote:

Well, I can safely say DD is quite overrated atm.  I understand Oda is hinting at DD being a beast but it seems some are passing it off as fact that DD is on some kind of godly tier.  I can only imagine what is to come when we see him fighting seriously....
He hints that he is capable of taking on an Admiral. That isn't really 'godly'.

Also, Law is underrated. He can probably one-shot everyone sans Kizaru, Akainu & Eneru.
Indeed, the fans make it seem as such though. As if DD will be the strongest character in One Piece ever. I think he will be on par with an Admiral but still be clearly below them.

Of course. Oda teamed Luffy up with Law so he wouldn't get slaughtered by Big Mama. Law will be able to protect the Strawhats from Big Mama, her crew, and her allies.
RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - zetruz - 12-13-2012 04:18 AM

Oben Wrote:
We can guess - one of her underlings, Bobbins, single-handedly wiped out an island, and people like Pekoms and Tamago fear her very much, and neither are weaklings themselves (or rather, Pekoms isn't, Tamago isn't proven yet. but as he seems to be Pekoms' superior, he's probably stronger).
That indicates her strength to be massive.

Actually, Bobbin arrived with friends, indicating that he didn't do it alone.
Yes, it does show that Pekoms thinks Big Mom is stronger than him. Not massively stronger necessarily, but stronger. (And in theory, he could be wrong.)
Point is, you're complaining that we assume Doflamingo is insanely strong. But the same is actually the case with Big Mom. You see a difference here that isn't shown in the manga.


Oben Wrote:
Sure. But that doesn’t rule out that the Yonkou are the four strongest pirates (see the beginning of the discussion). On the other hand, we know a Yonkou needs a great amount of strength to be called Yonkou in the first place, it is a title you earn. Hence, while the title doesn’t define a certain level for all that have it, it certainly does define a minimum level. This, btw, doesn’t apply for Marine ranks, since they are necessarily not earned but given, but it does for Shichibukai.

The bolded part is incorrect. All you need is enough political influence to rule a great part of the New World. In theory, Big Mom could be a weakling, but is legitimized by Doflamingo. Obviously I do think that all the Yonkou are strong, but you're wrong in saying one has to be insanely strong to be one. Likewise, the Shichibukai title is given to people deemed infamous enough to scare people into not becoming pirates. Buggy can be a Shichibukai because he's famous since the war (people even know he's an old Roger Pirate!). The Shichibukai title is infamy-based, and infamy is usually generated through the use of personal strength - but not always. Not necessarily. The Yonkou title is based on political power and influence, and such political power is usually granted through the use of personal power, but not always. Not necessarily. We can only assume that Big Mom is that strong, just like how we can only assume Doflamingo is that strong. Neither title defines a "minimum strength", and neither title is above the other.


Oben Wrote:
Obviously her head can be cut of. But he question is, can it actually be done just like that? Probably not, since there are various ways why it wouldn’t – surprise attacks tend not to work to well against Haki users.And I don’t consider it a stretch to assume she can use at least the basics of CoO. We know Haki to very common among the BM-pirates, therefore the chances for her to be able to use CoO is high.

CoO can be overcome with sheer speed, even pre-timeskip Luffy could overcome CoO with the use of Gear Second. And Gear Second movement takes much longer time than flicking a silly little finger, especially given how strong Doflamingo's muscles are. There's no getting around the fact that Doflamingo has to merely aim, and then flick a finger, to cut a whole limb off. To block that with Haki, Big Mom has to sense first that Doflamingo is going to attack her, then apply CoA defense. And remember, Vergo made the mistake of covering his whole body with CoA Hardening, instead of focusing it all in the area where he would be attacked. You think Doflamingo's ability can be negated with "general CoA"? No chance, you'll have to focus your Haki. And that means there's another step in the chain.
Doflamingo: Aim vaguely in Big Mom's direction (she's rather large), and flick his finger.
Big Mom: Sense this with CoO, sense where she will be attacked, and then amass enough CoA to block it.
And don't forget, Doflamingo's ability has a history of completely trolling proven CoA users, like Jozu. So even if Doflamingo can't cut Big Mom (maybe that can be blocked with CoA), we do know that his puppet-control ability does work on extremely strong CoA users.



Oben Wrote:
If she would fall for an attack like that, she wouldn’t be worth getting called Yonkou – but she is called Yonkou,and as I emphasized above and will also below, that means she must have a certain amount of feats.

I would refer you to this page.


Oben Wrote:
Dodging becomes more easy with CoO, which she is likely to have. Also, all of the Yonkou are probably a good deal better than Jozu (and Jozu is better than Atmos and the average VA), so that feat doesn’t really make DD as strong as Big Mam.

See the mistake you make yet again? You're assuming from the get-go that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of the title, which I've shown a few times now to be a very flawed assumption. Why does Doflamingo have everything to prove, and Big Mom have nothing to prove? Even Aokiji wasn't able to troll Jozu that easily, so Doflamingo has proven that he is monstrously strong. Big Mom has proven nothing, yet you assume her to be stronger than Doflamingo by definition because of a title. We know Doflamingo's ability can overcome CoA, and we know sheer speed can overcome CoO (and Doflamingo's attack is unbelievably quick, not to mention invisible).


Oben Wrote:
It is more than just hype. We have good reasons to believe that Big Mam has strength of her own, reasons besides her title:
- To be able to gain that position in the first place
- To be able to control such a huge crew. This is an important aspect, since we know how easily brutal conflict sparkles even in small crews, take for exampleLuffy vs. Usopp in Water 7.
- To be able to maintain her position. How many strong people try to take a Yonkou down? Probably dozens, if not more. She must have strength to surivive, and not only to survive, but keep her title.
See where I’m coming from?

Yes, and all of these can be explained away just like how Buggy can be a Shichibukai.
1. What if she was given the title by Doflamingo? What if she's protected by him?
2. What if Doflamingo is controlling her crew? And what if her crew are all idiots, just like Buggy's crew?
3. What if she doesn't ever fight, but rather sends out her underlings because she gives off an air of being "above fighting"?

The Yonkou title is a political power usually, but not necessarily, given due to personal strength. The same goes for Shichibukai. And unlike Big Mom, we do know that Doflamingo is strong enough to literally toy with top-level fighters like Jozu. Not even an Admiral has done that.


Oben Wrote:
I never said that DD was weak – simply, that being above a VA and Jozu doesn’t put him on the level of an Admiral. Take, for Luffy and Wadatsumi. Both were able to knock out the Krakenwith the same technique – does that mean they have the same strength? No.

A very flawed comparison. Doflamingo has toyed with Jozu, and Aokiji did not.
And we know that people with the same positions can be of extremely varied strength. Compare Mihawk to Moria. They are worlds apart. So why, then, are we assuming that Big Mom's strength can be at all compared to Shanks' or Whitebeard's? Why are we assuming she is that strong? Based on her title. By that logic, Mihawk is roughly as weak as Moria.

Doflamingo's feats, hype, and title all allow him to be Yonkiral level. We have more straight-out evidence that he is that strong, than we do that Big Mom is on that level. Given that Big Mom is a gear in Doflamingo's machinery, I'd say it's Big Mom who has yet to prove herself, not Doflamingo. We have good reason to assume he is on that level, because he has shown power in that general range.
Big Mom has not.


Oben Wrote:
That is very unlikely imo. Everything the story points towards is that Doflamingo will be the next main villain (see the current chapter, his henchmen and everyone is heading to Dressrosa) – and with that, his strength is most likely lower than the later opponents.

Ah, so by that logic, in Chapter 551, you thought Big Mom was weaker than Doflamingo? Given that she was implied to be the next villain?
In fact, I still think we'll be seeing Big Mom fight before we see Doflamingo fight. She'll be a stepping stone towards Doflamingo, because he's above her. I know, that might sound outrageous to you, but consider what Luffy says on this page. The Big Mom fight began before the Doflamingo fight. Just sayin'.
Luckily, we're likely to see the direction this is going soon enough. Yes, I do think we'll be seeing a Big Mom fight before we see a Doflamingo fight. And yes, I do think Doflamingo is above Big Mom.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-13-2012 05:20 AM

zetruz Wrote:

Actually, Bobbin arrived with friends, indicating that he didn't do it alone.
Yes, it does show that Pekoms thinks Big Mom is stronger than him. Not massively stronger necessarily, but stronger. (And in theory, he could be wrong.)
Point is, you're complaining that we assume Doflamingo is insanely strong. But the same is actually the case with Big Mom. You see a difference here that isn't shown in the manga.

He says he (first person) burned it down – sure you can interprete it this or that way, but given who he is in what environment, it is very likely he did it himself.
Again, I’m not complaining about his strength – I’m complaining about what level of strength you eventually put him at.
Quote:
The bolded part is incorrect. All you need is enough political influence to rule a great part of the New World. In theory, Big Mom could be a weakling, but is legitimized by Doflamingo. Obviously I do think that all the Yonkou are strong, but you're wrong in saying one has to be insanely strong to be one. Likewise, the Shichibukai title is given to people deemed infamous enough to scare people into not becoming pirates. Buggy can be a Shichibukai because he's famous since the war (people even know he's an old Roger Pirate!). The Shichibukai title is infamy-based, and infamy is usually generated through the use of personal strength - but not always. Not necessarily. The Yonkou title is based on political power and influence, and such political power is usually granted through the use of personal power, but not always. Not necessarily. We can only assume that Big Mom is that strong, just like how we can only assume Doflamingo is that strong. Neither title defines a "minimum strength", and neither title is above the other.



The Shichibukai-title is given to whom the Gorosei believe to be strong – it is the assumption of strength that could make Buggy Shichibukai rather than him being infamous (renember the Gorosei’s meeting after the war. They explicitly stated they wanted STRONG new candidates.) Now, Buggy isn’t strong, but he is assumed to be strong, so he got the title.
Now, let’s get to the Yonkou – and, I’m very sorry to say this, they are different. We know that Blackbeard had to conquer WB’s territories to be announced Yonkou by the public – that means, he had not only to be assumed to have strength but also to PROVE to have strength. Therefore, Big Mam can’t just be compared to Buggy.
As for the possibility of DD always being behind, I’ll look into that below.
Quote:
CoO can be overcome with sheer speed, even pre-timeskip Luffy could overcome CoO with the use of Gear Second. And Gear Second movement takes much longer time than flicking a silly little finger, especially given how strong Doflamingo's muscles are. There's no getting around the fact that Doflamingo has to merely aim, and then flick a finger, to cut a whole limb off. To block that with Haki, Big Mom has to sense first that Doflamingo is going to attack her, then apply CoA defense. And remember, Vergo made the mistake of covering his whole body with CoA Hardening, instead of focusing it all in the area where he would be attacked. You think Doflamingo's ability can be negated with "general CoA"? No chance, you'll have to focus your Haki. And that means there's another step in the chain.


And you tell me I’m making wild assumptions? How do you even know that DD’s cut works like that?
What tells you the cut doesn’t work like a whip and needs a bigger movemet (which is more likely, btw)? How do you know what effects Haki has on it at all?
Just some questions.
Quote:
Doflamingo: Aim vaguely in Big Mom's direction (she's rather large), and flick his finger.
Big Mom: Sense this with CoO, sense where she will be attacked, and then amass enough CoA to block it.
And don't forget, Doflamingo's ability has a history of completely trolling proven CoA users, like Jozu. So even if Doflamingo can't cut Big Mom (maybe that can be blocked with CoA), we do know that his puppet-control ability does work on extremely strong CoA users.


As for the cut, see above.
As for controlling I agree on that.
Quote:
I would refer you to this page.


We know from Crocodile, Marco etc. that a healthy WB would’ve been able to dodge .
Quote:
See the mistake you make yet again? You're assuming from the get-go that Big Mom is above Doflamingo because of the title, which I've shown a few times now to be a very flawed assumption. Why does Doflamingo have everything to prove, and Big Mom have nothing to prove? Even Aokiji wasn't able to troll Jozu that easily, so Doflamingo has proven that he is monstrously strong.


All these points are already covered in other places of this post, I’ll not type them here again if you don’t mind.

Quote:
Big Mom has proven nothing, yet you assume her to be stronger than Doflamingo by definition because of a title. We know Doflamingo's ability can overcome CoA, and we know sheer speed can overcome CoO (and Doflamingo's attack is unbelievably quick, not to mention invisible).
Yes, and all of these can be explained away just like how Buggy can be a Shichibukai.
1. What if she was given the title by Doflamingo? What if she's protected by him?
2. What if Doflamingo is controlling her crew? And what if her crew are all idiots, just like Buggy's crew?
3. What if she doesn't ever fight, but rather sends out her underlings because she gives off an air of being "above fighting"?


1. Is very unlikely. DD is what? 40? Big Mam seems to be a remnant from Roger’s age (given her comment on “Monkey D.”), so the chance he installed her are VERY slim.
2. Why would DD allow her crew to watch the Shinokuni experiment? Why would they watch it in the first place (though they could very well be idiots, that’s true. But look at Baby 5 and Buffalo, they don’t seem to be epitomes of reason either)
3. As pointed out in 1), her position must come from somewhere.
Quote:
The Yonkou title is a political power usually, but not necessarily, given due to personal strength. The same goes for Shichibukai. And unlike Big Mom, we do know that Doflamingo is strong enough to literally toy with top-level fighters like Jozu. Not even an Admiral has done that.


First of all, DD didn’t toy with Jozu, he simply stopped his movements. But oh well, this is not much of importance here. Jozu, and this now is important, was not a top-level fighter. He was no match for Aokiji, and nothing indicates he would be for other top-level fighters.
Quote:
A very flawed comparison. Doflamingo has toyed with Jozu, and Aokiji did not.


Aokiji had no problems defeating Jozu. It was just the first punch given by surprise that harmed Aokiji, later on he clearly dominated the battle.
Actually, the surprise moment comes into play with Jozu, too – Jozu was busy beating the crap out of Crocodile, so DD had easy play catching him.
Quote:
And we know that people with the same positions can be of extremely varied strength. Compare Mihawk to Moria. They are worlds apart. So why, then, are we assuming that Big Mom's strength can be at all compared to Shanks' or Whitebeard's? Why are we assuming she is that strong? Based on her title. By that logic, Mihawk is roughly as weak as Moria.


See, her title makes it necessary for her to have strength. I have already pointed that out above.
Quote:
Doflamingo's feats, hype, and title all allow him to be Yonkiral level. We have more straight-out evidence that he is that strong, than we do that Big Mom is on that level. Given that Big Mom is a gear in Doflamingo's machinery, I'd say it's Big Mom who has yet to prove herself, not Doflamingo. We have good reason to assume he is on that level, because he has shown power in that general range.
Big Mom has not.


And that is just your assumption for more assumptions – nothing proves Big Mam is under DD.
And yes, DD’s feats are good – but he has never displayed them against Yonkiral level fighters! How can you say he can keep up with them if you don’t know? And don’t come with Big Mam don’t having feats either – she MUST have feats given to her position.
This, btw, is the core statement of my whole argument.
Quote:
Ah, so by that logic, in Chapter 551, you thought Big Mom was weaker than Doflamingo? Given that she was implied to be the next villain?


Actually, no. I’ve always assumed Big Mam’s arc to run like Crocodile’s, with smaller arcs inbetween – which happened. As for DD on the other hand, there barely is anything that can be done inbetween anymore, hence it’s very likely he’ll go down next.
As an example, Water 7 and Lucci would be what Punk Hazard is for DD.
Quote:
In fact, I still think we'll be seeing Big Mom fight before we see Doflamingo fight. She'll be a stepping stone towards Doflamingo, because he's above her. I know, that might sound outrageous to you, but consider what Luffy says on this page. The Big Mom fight began before the Doflamingo fight. Just sayin'.
Luckily, we're likely to see the direction this is going soon enough. Yes, I do think we'll be seeing a Big Mom fight before we see a Doflamingo fight. And yes, I do think Doflamingo is above Big Mom.


The Wapol fight also started after Crocodile’s. Did that make Wapol a longer running villain?

I hope I didn't forget something.
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-13-2012 05:56 AM

DEW Wrote:
Also, Law is underrated. He can probably one-shot everyone sans Kizaru, Akainu & Eneru.


Doubt it. He's probably just the standard for the new VA levels (roughly).

Though you have to remember there's always certain types of fighters that'll outclass him easily (via ability etc).
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - ArSoNiSt JoE - 12-13-2012 08:07 AM

With the latest chapter I expect Law to be overrated as hell.


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - zetruz - 12-13-2012 08:08 AM

Oben Wrote:
He says he (first person) burned it down – sure you can interprete it this or that way, but given who he is in what environment, it is very likely he did it himself.

cnet128's translation:
Bobbin: Mama~~~~~~!!! / I just got back, boyoyoyoing!!
BigMam: Good, good... How did it go, Bobbin?
Bobbin: Perfect! It all went up in flames!!
BigMam: Excellent news... I always did adore that country's baked confections... // I can only imagine the wonderful scents of the entire country being baked through...a shame though it may be. // But it can't be helped. They failed to bake the confections they promised me.
Bobbin: Got any snacks?
BigMam: People who won't give me their sweets don't deserve to live. / And I can't stand people who promise me sweets and then fail to deliver. They're as terrible as bitter confections.
Bobbin: Oh, come to think of it... I heard that there might not be any sweets coming from Fishman Island this month either......


He never says he did it himself, and it's never implied that he went alone. So no go on the Bobbin argument, sorry. =)


Oben Wrote:
The Shichibukai-title is given to whom the Gorosei believe to be strong – it is the assumption of strength that could make Buggy Shichibukai rather than him being infamous (renember the Gorosei’s meeting after the war. They explicitly stated they wanted STRONG new candidates.) Now, Buggy isn’t strong, but he is assumed to be strong, so he got the title.

Actually, you're basing that off of this translation, where it mentions strength. But cnet128's translation says this:
We should first wait to see how the New World responds. / The lay of power amongst the pirates, too, should be undergoing change. // We must select only those individuals with great influence.

Likewise, consider this page. Sengoku knows how that works. He knows that it doesn't matter how strong the individual is - if he isn't famous, he's worthless as a Shichibukai. The Shichibukai don't exist as a military force, so strength isn't the requirement. They are a political force, meant to scare people into not becoming pirates. So to become a Shichibukai, you only need to be feared across the globe, you need to have the commoners think you are strong (like with Buggy). If the Gorosei truly wanted strong individuals, don't you think they'd test the applicants? They don't. They don't really care about how strong or weak the Shichibukai are, they only care about their value as political weapons. Tools of propaganda.


Oben Wrote:
Now, let’s get to the Yonkou – and, I’m very sorry to say this, they are different. We know that Blackbeard had to conquer WB’s territories to be announced Yonkou by the public – that means, he had not only to be assumed to have strength but also to PROVE to have strength. Therefore, Big Mam can’t just be compared to Buggy.

He had to conquer it, yes. But he didn't have to be strong himself to do that. Compare it to Buggy; Buggy has extremely strong followers (even Whitebeard commented on their strength), but he's a weakling. If he had enough strong followers, he could be a Yonkou by sending them to take over islands, without lifting a finger himself. It's a political title based on influence - and while influence is usually gained through personal strength, it doesn't have to be.
So yes, Big Mom might just have strong followers, and be a weakling herself. The Yonkou title doesn't guarantee anything, just like how the Shichibukai title doesn't.


Oben Wrote:
And you tell me I’m making wild assumptions? How do you even know that DD’s cut works like that?
What tells you the cut doesn’t work like a whip and needs a bigger movemet (which is more likely, btw)? How do you know what effects Haki has on it at all?
Just some questions.

Luffy's pre-TS punches weren't negated with general CoA. Law's cuts weren't negated by general CoA hardening. If Law, who's still a rookie, can cut through CoA Hardening, why shouldn't Doflamingo be able to? He is implied to be way above Law, still. An assumption, obviously, but a reasonable one. *shrugs*
As for bigger movements, that is not correct. None of Doflamingo's attacks have ever had him swinging his arms, he's always just turned a finger. Sure, on this page he was jumping, but he wasn't moving his arm - and on this page it isn't at all implied that he moved his arm. If it was a "whip movement", why doesn't Doflamingo need to use his arms when he's controlling people? Shouldn't he have to move his arms like a real puppeteer? He doesn't. He just moves his fingers. His attacks just are that quick.


Oben Wrote:
As for controlling I agree on that.

So what you're saying is that you agree that Doflamingo can control Big Mom quite easily, since we know it works on CoA users?
How would Big Mom defend herself against that? We have no reason at all to think she can, yet we are to assume she can because she's a Yonkou? Doflamingo's feats show that he has the ability to control even very powerful CoA users, by literally lifting but a finger. He is just that strong, and Big Mom has no known defense against it. Big Mom is the one who has things to prove, not Doflamingo.


Oben Wrote:
We know from Crocodile, Marco etc. that a healthy WB would’ve been able to dodge .

You're either dodging, or missing, the point. =) The point is that the title and power of a Yonkou doesn't guarantee a defense against incredibly fast attacks. And Doflamingo's attacks are not only insanely fast, they're also invisible. Big Mom has no known defense against this, and her title of Yonkou is not a valid argument, since we know that this title doesn't work as a defense against fast attacks.


Oben Wrote:
1. Is very unlikely. DD is what? 40? Big Mam seems to be a remnant from Roger’s age (given her comment on “Monkey D.”), so the chance he installed her are VERY slim.

Yeah, he's 41. And while I agree that she's been a pirate longer than he has, we don't know when she became a Yonkou. Doflamingo has been an influential pirate for a long time (with the whole Vergo business), so it isn't at all impossible that he installed her as a Yonkou. She might just have been a powerful pirate before that.


Oben Wrote:
2. Why would DD allow her crew to watch the Shinokuni experiment? Why would they watch it in the first place (though they could very well be idiots, that’s true. But look at Baby 5 and Buffalo, they don’t seem to be epitomes of reason either)

Why wouldn't he want them to watch it?


Oben Wrote:
First of all, DD didn’t toy with Jozu, he simply stopped his movements. But oh well, this is not much of importance here. Jozu, and this now is important, was not a top-level fighter. He was no match for Aokiji, and nothing indicates he would be for other top-level fighters.

Aokiji had no problems defeating Jozu. It was just the first punch given by surprise that harmed Aokiji, later on he clearly dominated the battle.
Actually, the surprise moment comes into play with Jozu, too – Jozu was busy beating the crap out of Crocodile, so DD had easy play catching him.

Actually, Aokiji was never shown dominating the battle until Jozu was busy worrying about Whitebeard and Marco. We don't see the battle until that point.
By "top-level", I don't mean Yonkiral-level, obviously. But top-level below that? Of course he was. He is indicated to be much stronger than people like Onigumo, for example. Doflamingo sat on his back and laughed, which means he was toying with him. He was literally laughing, and was talking to Crocodile.
So by this logic, Doflamingo is indicated to be roughly as strong as Aokiji, who could fight equally with Akainu and Whitebeard. Which puts Doflamingo in the Yonkiral league based on feats and comparisons. Vague, but not invalid, reasoning.


Oben Wrote:
Quote:
And we know that people with the same positions can be of extremely varied strength. Compare Mihawk to Moria. They are worlds apart. So why, then, are we assuming that Big Mom's strength can be at all compared to Shanks' or Whitebeard's? Why are we assuming she is that strong? Based on her title. By that logic, Mihawk is roughly as weak as Moria.

See, her title makes it necessary for her to have strength. I have already pointed that out above.


So this needs addressing now, doesn't it? =)


Oben Wrote:
And that is just your assumption for more assumptions – nothing proves Big Mam is under DD.

Of course not, nor does anything prove that DD is below Big Mom. That's all opinion. My whole beef is with the "Yonkou > Shichibukai" argument, because it is deeply flawed; it is a misunderstanding of what the titles are based on. They are not titles of strength, they are both titles of political influence and infamy. These things are usually granted through personal strength, but it doesn't have to be the case. And more importantly, the assumed strength is not indicated to be stronger than the other; Doflamingo doesn't have to be as weak as Moria, and Big Mom doesn't have to be as strong as Shanks or Whitebeard. For all we know, she might be as weak as Buggy, and just be someone who has managed to gather enough powerful followers to have that sort of political power - enough to be a Yonkou.
I don't think that's the case, obviously, I'm merely pointing out how flawed the idea of ranking these titles is.


Oben Wrote:
And yes, DD’s feats are good – but he has never displayed them against Yonkiral level fighters! How can you say he can keep up with them if you don’t know? And don’t come with Big Mam don’t having feats either – she MUST have feats given to her position.
This, btw, is the core statement of my whole argument.

I know that's the core, and it's the core argument that I have a problem with. She does not have to be that strong to be a Yonkou. It is simply not true. She's likely to be, but it isn't a necessity.
Therefore, the argument that Big Mom hasn't shown any abilities at all (besides eating unseen fodder sort of like Wapol) is very valid indeed. Doflamingo has shown his ability not against Yonkiral-level fighters, but he has shown them against top-level fighters like Jozu, who couldn't do jack against Doflamingo.

Feats: Doflamingo has shown great strength, Big Mom has shown nothing.
Hype: Debatable, vague, and complex for both.


Oben Wrote:
Actually, no. I’ve always assumed Big Mam’s arc to run like Crocodile’s, with smaller arcs inbetween – which happened. As for DD on the other hand, there barely is anything that can be done inbetween anymore, hence it’s very likely he’ll go down next.
As an example, Water 7 and Lucci would be what Punk Hazard is for DD.

"Barely is anything"? You say that only because you refuse to believe that Big Mom is below Doflamingo - because if this page is true, and Big Mom belongs to Doflamingo just like Caesar does, then Big Mom is the story to put between now and facing Doflamingo.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-13-2012 08:27 AM

Big Mom is stronger than DD and she is not his underling until proven otherwise. Kindly deal with it.


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-13-2012 08:28 AM

ArSoNiSt JoE Wrote:

With the latest chapter I expect Law to be overrated as hell.

The fuck are you doing here o_o
RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-13-2012 11:03 AM

Flawfree Princess Wrote:

Big Mom is stronger than DD and she is not his underling until proven otherwise. Kindly deal with it.


Not strictly speaking. We don't know if his abilities can work on her, if he's secretly manipulated her without her realizing, etc. etc.

You can never say "it's this until proven otherwise" if you can't give explicit panels in the first place.

Unless you're biceps. But he died.
RE:    The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - DEW - 12-13-2012 11:05 AM

m1hawkgsm Wrote:

Doubt it.  He's probably just the standard for the new VA levels (roughly).

Though you have to remember there's always certain types of fighters that'll outclass him easily (via ability etc).
Standard for the new VA levels? He beat one pretty handily, and then one-shot another. In all seriousness I think he is in the limbo between VA and Admiral, like Marco. So he can't do jack shit to an Admiral, but VAs are doable with some challenge.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-13-2012 11:09 AM

I think he can match an Admiral, he might not win, but I believe he can.


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - DEW - 12-13-2012 11:49 AM

strawhats Wrote:

I think he can match an Admiral, he might not win, but I believe he can.
This early? That is possible considering he may want the Strawhats, not for the Yonkou confrontation, but the crew confrontation itself, but I'm not too sure.
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-13-2012 11:56 AM

DEW Wrote:

strawhats Wrote:

I think he can match an Admiral, he might not win, but I believe he can.
This early? That is possible considering he may want the Strawhats, not for the Yonkou confrontation, but the crew confrontation itself, but I'm not too sure.


I thought we were talking about what's his face....Doflamingo :P
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - retroluffy13 - 12-13-2012 12:09 PM

Enel: has an extremely overpowered ability, man himself is overrated by many.

Law: for the longest time, we knew nothing about him. I wouldn't say he's overrated, but as of late, he is hax to the tenth degree.

Luffy: use to be overrated, though i feel he's been underrated as of late with all the new law wank.

WhiteBeard > Chuck Norris.


RE:    The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - DEW - 12-13-2012 12:10 PM

strawhats Wrote:

I thought we were talking about what's his face....Doflamingo :P
Oh. Then I agree, although I think he can win potentially.
RE:     The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - strawhats - 12-13-2012 12:18 PM

DEW Wrote:
Oh. Then I agree, although I think he can win potentially.


Possibly, yes. I do think he can match the Admirals, but the fact that we know little about his fighting abilities leaves me split on whether he could potentially beat them. He's confident, I'll give him that. He threatened a higher up of the WG even though he had the Admirals at his disposal, so that might be a hint that he's confident enough to take anything they can throw at him, possibly?
RE:     The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-13-2012 01:09 PM

DEW Wrote:
Standard for the new VA levels? He beat one pretty handily, and then one-shot another. In all seriousness I think he is in the limbo between VA and Admiral, like Marco. So he can't do jack shit to an Admiral, but VAs are doable with some challenge.


Smoker is near even with him, I'm convinced he can defeat Vergo (had he not had that debt to Law). You also have to remember the power levels of the VAs themselves vary.

Doable implies on par. And I'm talking about new people.
RE:   The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-13-2012 06:19 PM

m1hawkgsm Wrote:

Flawfree Princess Wrote:

Big Mom is stronger than DD and she is not his underling until proven otherwise. Kindly deal with it.


Not strictly speaking.  We don't know if his abilities can work on her, if he's secretly manipulated her without her realizing, etc. etc.

You can never say "it's this until proven otherwise" if you can't give explicit panels in the first place.

Unless you're biceps.  But he died.


No one has given me explicit panels to show that DD is controlling BM.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Oben - 12-14-2012 04:47 AM

@zetruz: I won’t quote all of your post, since there are some things that can’t be argued with, the CNet quotes for example. I’ll have to give you the Shichibukai and Bobbins. (Damn ^^)

As for the rest, I’ll divide your post into topics I disagree with, since I know your points and it’s easier than quoting everything as a whole.

1. The Yonkou (similar to the Shichibukai) title doesn’t require strength

I’ll point out why the Yonkou needs strength and can’t just run the business as a weakling, different to a Shichibukai.
The Yonkou has to hold his crew together. The bigger the crew, the more likely is internal conflict. There is nearly no way to prevent the crew from falling apart by revolution without being able to prove strength. Even the SHs, which are bound together with nakamapower and happiness, have experienced that – Luffy had to prove his strength to Usopp and the crew, and Luffy and Zoro came into a fight. Now, make the crew a 100 times bigger and a dozen times stronger, and put a weakling at the top of it. Obviously that can work out if there is a bigger force behind the head (like in Spandam’s case), but that only applies if the underlings know of that force – which wouldn’t be the case for any of the known Yonkou’s crews.  
(Obviuosly charisma can hold together a crew for a while – but you can’t tell me that this will last forever, especially if the underlings fear the boss like the devil the holy water like in Big Mam’s case.)

2. Doflamingo’s feats put him on Yonkiral level

See, they could, but they don’t necessarily do. Doflamingo’s feats, as big as they are, only put him above a certain level, and that is above the common VA. There is still a huge gap to the known Yonkou, which are likely on roughly the same level. (Yes, they are.) The comparison with Aokiji is flawed too – we have NOT seen DD being capable of actually defeating Jozu, while Aokiji is.
Obviously Big Mam doesn’t have the feats to prove that level yet – then again, if that is the only thing that counts, Buggy > Kaidou. Oh, and Buggy > DD, too, btw. :P

But fine – let’s assume Doflamingo is actually on that level, since it is not impossible.

I can’t seriously argue a fighting debate without any “real” feats for Big Mam *shrugs*
My interest is more in point 1) and 3) anyway.

3. The story won't head to Dressrosa next because Big Mam is under DD

Everything in the current chapter 692 points towards Dressrosa – DD’s henchman arriving, trying and probably managing to get Caesar there – once Caesar is there, Law will have to follow, since his whole plan is based on stopping the production of SAD. There is no point in taking on Big Mam before actually putting his plan into motion. We also know that Law has no problem in taking on DD’s organization – he must’ve known DD would send men, yet he didn’t care at all. That also points in the direction of Doflamingo next.
Now, to the second point. What points towards it? The thing with the gears, but that doesn’t mean at all that DD is actually the boss of Big Mam. It means they are connected in some way, but I’d guess as business partners. Given CC’s comment about the Smiles, she is actually purchasing them – would she do that if they were in the same organization? Hardly. Obviously DD can take influence in some way, like any trader can – but not more than that. DD influence lies in the gears he has connected, not in what he has built up (!).


RE:    The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-14-2012 08:41 AM

Flawfree Princess Wrote:

No one has given me explicit panels to show that DD is controlling BM.


No one has given me explicit panels showing that Big Mom can one shot DD while eating ginger bread cookies.

What we do have are:

1. A panel of Law referencing DD's "gears", which include, interestingly enough, a picture of Big Mom, along with CC. Above are the new players.

2. Big Mom's higher underlings pay attention seriously to DD's doings.

3. Big Mom has an addiction to candy.

The last two are more circumstantial than anything, but the first one is very symbolic. You might say, "well Yonkou are part of the old system, so there". Yes, but why is Big Mom there and not Shanks? Not Kaido? Not Blackbeard? Why is she there at THAT moment?

Keep in mind that "control" can be a very loose thing. We saw that WB relied on stuff that had DD's label on it. That is a very weak form of control, but it still is control.

How much remains to be ascertained, but it's clear DD has some sort of special relationship with BM.

What do you have against that, panel wise?
RE:     The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-14-2012 09:04 AM

m1hawkgsm Wrote:

Flawfree Princess Wrote:

No one has given me explicit panels to show that DD is controlling BM.


No one has given me explicit panels showing that Big Mom can one shot DD while eating ginger bread cookies.

What we do have are:

1. A panel of Law referencing DD's "gears", which include, interestingly enough, a picture of Big Mom, along with CC. Above are the new players.

And none of those people are controlled by DD. CC is the only one confirmed to be affliated with DD and even then he's not controlled by him. So I fail to see how the majority of the fandom has chosen to believe that panels means DD is controlling BM

Quote:
Big Mom's higher underlings pay attention seriously to DD's doings.


We were shown tons of new faces watching CC's broadcast. What makes you think other underlings of other yonkous weren't watching as well?
In any case underlings watching CC still do not indicate or even hint that DD is controlling her

Quote:
3.  Big Mom has an addiction to candy.


And?

Quote:
The last two are more circuumstantial than anything, but the first one is very symbolic.  You might say, "well Yonkou are part of the old system, so there".  Yes, but why is Big Mom there and not Shanks? Not Kaido?  Not Blackbeard?  Why is she there at THAT moment?


Because she's the next yonkou Oda has chosen to introduce us to since FI

Quote:
Keep in mind that "control" can be a very loose thing.  We saw that WB relied on stuff that had DD's label on it.  That is a very weak form of control, but it still is control.


Ok so what kind of control are you guys implying here then? *confused*

Quote:
How much remains to be ascertained, but it's clear DD has some sort of special relationship with BM.


Of course there's a link between the two but I'm seeing a lot of reaching being done here. Things are being stated as facts based on one's interpretation of manga panels that can often be off from the author's original intent.

Quote:
What do you have against that, panel wise?


The fact that the era of smiles was stated to have begun about two years ago and we know that BM was already a yonkou prior to that. She had the same design so she may have been already addicted to candy regardless of DD/CC. More importantly the SAD business only began recently. I think it's underestimating BM by coming to the conclusion she would let herself be controlled by a shichi no less in that time.
RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - zetruz - 12-14-2012 01:24 PM

Oben Wrote:
1. The Yonkou (similar to the Shichibukai) title doesn’t require strength

I’ll point out why the Yonkou needs strength and can’t just run the business as a weakling, different to a Shichibukai.
The Yonkou has to hold his crew together. The bigger the crew, the more likely is internal conflict. There is nearly no way to prevent the crew from falling apart by revolution without being able to prove strength. Even the SHs, which are bound together with nakamapower and happiness, have experienced that – Luffy had to prove his strength to Usopp and the crew, and Luffy and Zoro came into a fight. Now, make the crew a 100 times bigger and a dozen times stronger, and put a weakling at the top of it. Obviously that can work out if there is a bigger force behind the head (like in Spandam’s case), but that only applies if the underlings know of that force – which wouldn’t be the case for any of the known Yonkou’s crews.  
(Obviuosly charisma can hold together a crew for a while – but you can’t tell me that this will last forever, especially if the underlings fear the boss like the devil the holy water like in Big Mam’s case.)

Actually, it's easy to design a Yonkou pirate crew that's run by a weakling. Imagine if Buggy's followers are as strong as Marco and the like. Buggy could send them to take over islands, and he could command them to protect him because they think he's strong. Like his presumed Shichibukai status, a Yonkou status can be based on one big lie. There's no actual difference. In fact, if anything, the Shichibukai are more likely to have to prove their strength, since they can actually be summoned to battles like the Whitebeard War.

Or let's imagine a different crew. Let's say Big Mom is a weakling, but she has a few select underlings that are Marco-level. These know about the lie, though. These people work for Doflamingo, and are told by him to protect her and maintain the lie. She's a weakling, yet perceived to be a Yonkou (though Doflamingo would be the 'actual' boss).

So as I keep saying, strength isn't an absolute necessity to be a Yonkou. One can design crews based not on the Yonkou's personal strength. Which is part of why I say that Big Mom's title doesn't put her above Doflamingo. It simply doesn't. It has never ever been indicated that Doflamingo is below anybody; in fact, it's been indicated that he is unbelievably strong, because he has almost caused war from within Mariejoa itself twice. Once, he was attacking Vice Admirals and toying with them when there were top Marines and other Shichibukais around. After the war, he was threatening an implied "absolute top" World Government official while in Mariejoa. This shouldn't be forgotten or ignored.


Oben Wrote:
See, they could, but they don’t necessarily do. Doflamingo’s feats, as big as they are, only put him above a certain level, and that is above the common VA. There is still a huge gap to the known Yonkou, which are likely on roughly the same level. (Yes, they are.)

Why? We know the Shichibukai aren't all on the same level. We know the Vice Admirals aren't all on the same level. We know the Yonkou aren't all on the same level (prime Whitebeard was in a league above the others). We know that the Yonkou league, like the Shichibukai league, isn't "even" - we know that the Yonkou can play in different power ranges. I didn't just randomly say that Oda has made a point of shattering perceived equality.
Compare Mihawk to Moria. Or Jinbe to Moria, even. They are worlds apart, despite having the same title.
Compare Jaguar D. Saul to then-Vice Admiral Kuzan. They were worlds apart, despite having the same title. Saul didn't stand a chance in hell of defeating Aokiji.
Compare prime Whitebeard to any other Yonkou. We know he was in a league above them all, together with Roger and Garp.
Compare the Supernovas, they also apply. Pre-TS Urouge vs pre-TS Luffy? Or pre-TS Kid vs pre-TS Zoro?

We know the Yonkou aren't all necessarily on the same level. Oda has made a point of telling us this even when it comes to the Yonkou.


Oben Wrote:
The comparison with Aokiji is flawed too – we have NOT seen DD being capable of actually defeating Jozu, while Aokiji is.

Flawed? Vague? Perhaps. But also worth mentioning.
Aokiji was able to defeat Jozu when Jozu was looking away.
Doflamingo was able to take control of Jozu when he was looking away. He even rode the bugger.
So in other words, both people have managed to troll Jozu when Jozu has been looking away. While that leaves a lot of unknowns, it does mean they have similar feats. In fact, these are the only two people who managed to troll Jozu, as far as I know. One could very well make the argument that Oda was trying to tell us something.


Oben Wrote:
Obviously Big Mam doesn’t have the feats to prove that level yet – then again, if that is the only thing that counts, Buggy > Kaidou. Oh, and Buggy > DD, too, btw. :P

I have explicitly said that feats aren't the only thing that counts, and that I think hype is worth mentioning, so there's nothing I can say to that.
With Buggy, we know he's weak. That's been proven, both story-wise and feats-wise.
So in short, I never said that's the only thing that counts, nor did I ever use that logic at all. (Did you see me saying "since Doflamingo has feats, he's stronger than Big Mom"?)


We know that a Shichibukai isn't always as weak as Moria, and we know a Yonkou isn't always as strong as Whitebeard. When it comes to flawed and vague arguments, the title-based one is pretty high up there, don't you see? Why should we assume that no-feats Doflamingo is weaker than no-feats Big Mom?


Oben Wrote:
3. The story won't head to Dressrosa next because Big Mam is under DD

Everything in the current chapter 692 points towards Dressrosa – DD’s henchman arriving, trying and probably managing to get Caesar there – once Caesar is there, Law will have to follow, since his whole plan is based on stopping the production of SAD. There is no point in taking on Big Mam before actually putting his plan into motion. We also know that Law has no problem in taking on DD’s organization – he must’ve known DD would send men, yet he didn’t care at all. That also points in the direction of Doflamingo next.

But by that logic, he could've also assumed that Big Mom would send men, since she's dependent on the Smiles. And yet he didn't care at all. So by your logic, Law fears neither the Big Mom Pirates nor the Donquixote Pirates.

Actually, Law has never indicated that he's ready to fight Doflamingo. If he was, why would he be attacking Doflamingo's organization on an island as remote as Punk Hazard? It's because he thought he'd found a weak point; a weakly defended island with one of Doflamingo's most important gears. Law's plan has failed; Doflamingo will now bring Caesar back to him, and hold Caesar very tight to his chest. We have no reason to think Law is willing to go there - there's a reason why he was upset by the thought of Caesar getting away.

So I disagree, I think Law attacked such a remote island because while he's willing to fight both Big Mom and Doflamingo, he isn't ready to attack them directly yet. This arc was something akin to guerrilla warfare, and guerrilla warfare is done by people who simply aren't prepared to face the enemy directly.


Oben Wrote:
Now, to the second point. What points towards it? The thing with the gears, but that doesn’t mean at all that DD is actually the boss of Big Mam. It means they are connected in some way, but I’d guess as business partners. Given CC’s comment about the Smiles, she is actually purchasing them – would she do that if they were in the same organization? Hardly. Obviously DD can take influence in some way, like any trader can – but not more than that. DD influence lies in the gears he has connected, not in what he has built up (!).

This is a very big one. Doflamingo is providing Big Mom with wares. We don't know if she buys them or not, since if Doflamingo does control Big Mom, DD isn't likely to tell Caesar this, thus Caesar may very well just assume that she's buying the wares. So all we know is that DD provides BM with Smiles.
Now, why is that important? Well, the fact that he's providing her with such weapons means she is dependent on him. Not the other way around. We outright know that Big Mom is dependent on Doflamingo, but we have no reason to think the reverse is true. In fact, if Doflamingo was giving her Smiles as payment for something, why doesn't Big Mom just kidnap Caesar?
So indeed, we're told that Big Mom is dependent on Doflamingo's wares, and he has a monopoly on them. This means he can control the prices as he wishes, if he is indeed selling them. He controls the market, and he has chosen to let her purchase his goods. This means her buying his wares plays right into Doflamingo's hand, ie she is his pawn. She may not know it, she may just think of it as a business deal, but he is above her in the food chain.

This doesn't at all prove that he's stronger than her, of course, that's a whole different issue. But I would say we've been shown that Big Mom is dependent on Doflamingo, while the reverse hasn't even been hinted at. If Big Mom having Smiles didn't play into Doflamingo's hand, why would he let her have them? We don't know what his plan is, but Big Mom is a potential enemy. Would he really give her these powerful weapons for money? No, he wouldn't. He's a Shichibukai, and a very strong one at that. Shichibukai can make money by raiding the World Government's enemies, which would be the easiest thing in the world for Doflamingo.
So it isn't that - it isn't for financial gain. He's providing her with Smiles because he wants her to have Smiles, which means it's a relationship of superiority in the food chain. One is dependent on the other, and so far it's been implied a number of times that she needs him. He has a monopoly, and thus, he makes the rules. When it comes to this "business deal", Big Mom is Doflamingo's pawn, though she may not be intelligent enough to realize it. (She could very well think it's just business.)
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - waleuska - 12-14-2012 03:34 PM

^^i agree. the odds are DD is controlling Big Mom one way or anther.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Relinquisher - 12-14-2012 03:36 PM

the theory is nice but DDs goal is to become a yonko, yet he is not one, what exactly would he gain by controling a yonko and how exactly would he go about doing it?

theres 0 evidence of his battle feats, its all hype based on his powers, which everyone thinks are foolproof but since DD has to lose at some point it means theres some way to break his powers, which in turn means as they stand now they are useless, if you control someone, and they figure out how to break out of it, then theres no point trying to control them anymore and form that point DD has no fighting feats besides cutting off a giants leg which quite frankly zoro could have done in east blue most likely.

the problem is you are all viewing DD in some special magic light that makes everything he does the best thing ever and jump to the highest conclusions ever.

DD is a underworld dealer, and ill give him props he seems to be the most popular one and/or the most sucsessful one, his current operation is less of a pirate crew and more of a buissness, or a mafia type operation tbh. It fits quite nicely with a pirate theme b/c those 2 themes meld pretty well, but what it does not give him is actual power. Sure in the real world the mafia are incredibly powerful, but when the average person in big moms crew has fighting prowess far past a normal person and can trasform into animals that all gets thrown out the window.

DD supplies the yonko with whatever they need, with i assume his goal to be eventually weakening one of them and taking thier place, his target seems to be big mom, since as many have pointed out from the manga she is being portrayed as the weakest of the 4 yonko, so everyone is gunning for her, including DD.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-14-2012 04:36 PM

A business goes both ways. The person supplying is as dependent as the client buying. If BM is as dependent on what DD is supplying then he is as dependent on her buying it otherwise he wouldn't be freaking out at the possibility of no longer being able to supply her.
In fact an addict is more dependent on the product than the person providing. DD is the enabler but without the product his job is moot and he actually risk to be the subject of the addict's wrath (BM). Jeez no wonder he's shitting his pants BM probably threatened to sit on his face if he stopped supplying :heehee:


RE:  The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-14-2012 05:18 PM

Flawfree Princess Wrote:

A business goes both ways. The person supplying is as dependent as the client buying. If BM is as dependent on what DD is supplying then he is as dependent on her buying it otherwise he wouldn't be freaking out at the possibility of no longer being able to supply her.
In fact an addict is more dependent on the product than the person providing. DD is the enabler but without the product his job is moot and he actually risk to be the subject of the addict's wrath (BM). Jeez no wonder he's shitting his pants BM probably threatened to sit on his face if he stopped supplying :heehee:


Ignoring the fact Doflamingo's customers include the other 60% of the world, of course.
RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-14-2012 05:24 PM

Like in every business there are VIP clients and than the rest. BM is VIP.


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - Flawfree Princess - 12-14-2012 05:28 PM

Also ffs I want to post in the new forum already but but but no activation email has been sent. Screw you all


RE: The most Overrated/Underrated OP-Characters - m1hawkgsm - 12-15-2012 02:57 AM

Funny, I got mine literally a second later.

And who said BM is the only VP? Now you're just throwing assumptions around :P